One thing I've always been taught about Uechi front-kicking is that the first thing you do is bring the knee up to your belly button, sole of the foot parallel to the floor.
Then, the knee snaps down, shooting the foot straight out as if it were on a flat rail, until at full extension either the pointed toes or ball of the foot contact the target.
This is equivalent to ramming a pole-end straight into the opponent's gut, or whatever target.
Lately however, I've noticed what I'd call a "snapping front-kick" where the foot is pointed rearward and the shin swung up and forward, contacting with the top of the instep. This applies, as does my above description, to front kicks off the front or rear foot.
I see this as a dangerous way to kick using an easily-damaged part of the foot. Apart from a groin kick I can't see what use it would have.
Is it a often-used or taught Uechi kick? Any other comments on this?
NM
A different kick...
Moderator: Available
It sounds like this......
From your description of the kick using the front,upper part of the foot to hit with is a variation that has its counterpart with the hands. In some systems of kungfu, the back of the hand,near the thumb and wrist is used to strike an opponent. It is difficult to describe here but easier to demonstrate. The thing is, that either surface, that of the hand or the foot, has to be conditioned to take the impact if it is to be fully effective. However, you might compare such to a slap or a whip,something that stings. Of course, the angles and height are factors that you have not mentioned exactly or the targets for such. Such kicks and blows are not for extreme penetration probably even when directed to soft targets but are intended to hit a fairly large area not possible with just a single knuckle, for example. That's my take and I am sure others have different views on this. Good luck. 
Hi Halford; thanks for your reply.
I am very familiar with strikes using the back of wrist and thumb area; these are called "wrist blocks" and are a fundamental drill in Uechi.
These bones are large and can be applied with much force with no ill results.
If you wish to use the hand analogy, it would be more appropriate to think of the top of the hand, where all those little tenons and bones are "protected" only by a thin sheath of skin...like the instep of the foot.
Would THAT make any sense as a strike?
As for the angles and heights of the kick I asked about; that WAS my question! What is this type of front-kick for?
Where is it targetted?
Is it taught by the Uechi mainstream?
Is is effective in any different manner than our "piston-style" front-kick?
(I DO have a possible answer to my own question, but I'm awaiting more expertise before going further with it.)
NM
I am very familiar with strikes using the back of wrist and thumb area; these are called "wrist blocks" and are a fundamental drill in Uechi.
These bones are large and can be applied with much force with no ill results.
If you wish to use the hand analogy, it would be more appropriate to think of the top of the hand, where all those little tenons and bones are "protected" only by a thin sheath of skin...like the instep of the foot.
Would THAT make any sense as a strike?
As for the angles and heights of the kick I asked about; that WAS my question! What is this type of front-kick for?
Where is it targetted?
Is it taught by the Uechi mainstream?
Is is effective in any different manner than our "piston-style" front-kick?
(I DO have a possible answer to my own question, but I'm awaiting more expertise before going further with it.)
NM
Try as hard as I can, 2green, but I just can't point my foot rearward doing a front kick. my body just doesn't have that type of hinge. I can, however, point my toes downward. Except for kicking into the groin area, using the instep doesn't seem to fit anywhere facing someone straight on using a front kick. Contact someplace else by mistake and you could really hurt yourself.Lately however, I've noticed what I'd call a "snapping front-kick" where the foot is pointed rearward and the shin swung up and forward, contacting with the top of the instep. This applies, as does my above description, to front kicks off the front or rear foot.
However, the instep is a good striking weapon if it is at the terminating end of a full roundhouse kick, or directed at certain targets using a crescent, or half-roundhouse kick. There are lots of spots in the body that lend themselves as perfect targets for the instep, if you can get to them. A way to toughen and even develop callouses on the upper part of your foot is to sink plenty of roundhouse kicks into a moving heavy bag.
I was once famous for blocking all sorts of exposed instep kicks using my elbows. Forget about the Uechicircle and cross blocks against circular kicks leading with the instep. The elbow block is a crippling block and can put the hurt on someone, a gift that keeps giving for weeks afterwards. The harder they kick the more they hurt, and the elbow is virtually impervious to damage when the instep connects with it.
Instep kicks are good, you just have to know how they can be stopped and use your strategy accordingly. When I pointed my toes down to begin a frontal kick, my weapon is the shin and the foot position is such that its placement is to keep from getting hit. But there are not too many places on the anatomy unless you twist to the side and kick. It may look like you are coming in at an angle but your geometry is straight on as you attack the other's legs.
For a front instep kick, I picture it as a sprain waiting to happen.
Always with an even keel.
-- Allen
-- Allen
Deep Sea:
Thanks for your reply; I meant that the foot pointed rearward during the chambering, not the delivery...sorry!
In this case, the thigh/knee is brought up only to the point where it's pointing straight forward.
The shin is tucked up under the thigh, toes pointing backward/downward. (My mirror says about 45 degrees;) as opposed to the classic Uechi chamber where the knee is higher and out front, and the shin vertical, the sole parallel to the floor.
The rest of your post perfectly expresses my puzzlement about the instep/snapping kick.
It is my practise and my assumption that when executing the roundhouse and crescent kicks you mentioned, it is the shin, not the instep, which delivers the blow.
I do realize these are different.
It was this "snapping front kick" which had me puzzled.
I'll reveal my theory:
It would be a better choice to take out a hand-held weapon than the traditional Uechi front kick, which is a body-injuring kick.
The snapping kick might be faster to target a hand or wrist, and the upward sweeping motion might be helpful for "clearing" said weapon.
Bear in mind I'm only a junior rank; I have no experience with this.
NM
Thanks for your reply; I meant that the foot pointed rearward during the chambering, not the delivery...sorry!
In this case, the thigh/knee is brought up only to the point where it's pointing straight forward.
The shin is tucked up under the thigh, toes pointing backward/downward. (My mirror says about 45 degrees;) as opposed to the classic Uechi chamber where the knee is higher and out front, and the shin vertical, the sole parallel to the floor.
The rest of your post perfectly expresses my puzzlement about the instep/snapping kick.
It is my practise and my assumption that when executing the roundhouse and crescent kicks you mentioned, it is the shin, not the instep, which delivers the blow.
I do realize these are different.
It was this "snapping front kick" which had me puzzled.
I'll reveal my theory:
It would be a better choice to take out a hand-held weapon than the traditional Uechi front kick, which is a body-injuring kick.
The snapping kick might be faster to target a hand or wrist, and the upward sweeping motion might be helpful for "clearing" said weapon.
Bear in mind I'm only a junior rank; I have no experience with this.
NM
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
You will see a wide variation in mechanics on front kick. The "right" way to do things is the way that is effective and doesn't put you at risk.
What you describe with the foot pointing back, so to speak, is something people do to get a better snap when they kick. Fine... You will get a better snap. You will "look" better for it. It will sound better. However,
* it takes longer to get to the target,
* there is more motion, so the other person can perceive it coming easier,
* it's harder on your knee, and
* the angles do indeed put you at risk should someone jam the kick - something an effective fighter will do.
A real fighter doesn't chamber all the way back with the hands like you do in classroom punching. Eventually one learns to throw a decent punch from a "post" position, and chamber slightly as one flows from technique to technique. So too must a good karateka learn to throw a kick by merely lifting the knee with foot under it (pointing to target) and firing.
Part of the problem is where one gets the energy for the kick. If you are using your arms for your punches and your legs for your kicks, you will need all the momentum you can get. When you learn to use whole-body mechanics, you won't need the long wind-up. This takes time to learn, but there are a number of ways to learn it.
Stick with your original idea, and perfect it. You are on the right track.
- Bill
What you describe with the foot pointing back, so to speak, is something people do to get a better snap when they kick. Fine... You will get a better snap. You will "look" better for it. It will sound better. However,
* it takes longer to get to the target,
* there is more motion, so the other person can perceive it coming easier,
* it's harder on your knee, and
* the angles do indeed put you at risk should someone jam the kick - something an effective fighter will do.
A real fighter doesn't chamber all the way back with the hands like you do in classroom punching. Eventually one learns to throw a decent punch from a "post" position, and chamber slightly as one flows from technique to technique. So too must a good karateka learn to throw a kick by merely lifting the knee with foot under it (pointing to target) and firing.
Part of the problem is where one gets the energy for the kick. If you are using your arms for your punches and your legs for your kicks, you will need all the momentum you can get. When you learn to use whole-body mechanics, you won't need the long wind-up. This takes time to learn, but there are a number of ways to learn it.
Stick with your original idea, and perfect it. You are on the right track.
- Bill
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
I just thought I'd add to this post a bit...
Most of us at one time or another are concerned with the "right" way to do things. Follow a number of people or ideas on these forums, and you see the pattern. It's good to be right; it's good to be effective. But when concern turns to obsession, you are blinded to all the other possibilities. When a person cannot let go of a topic, cannot see merit in other ways, and only hears what (s)he want to hear to fit his/her view of the world, then the growth and the learning stops.
Prescriptions for how to do things are guideposts, and not hitching posts. You operate within certain parameters to get a job done, but those parameters can vary depending on the application, the age of the practitioner, the particular talents, and the ability.
I've spent year watching Uechi Kanei doing his front kick, both by sequence of still shots (nice one in George's Uechiryu Karatedo) and by grainy B&W, 16 mm film. The man can kick! But when he's doing his kata, you notice parts of the body moving that...well...it just isn't "precise." His body undulates. His arms fly out. He bobs his head. Not picture perfect... But the man can kick!
Over time, I began to appreciate the origin of these "mistakes." Over time, I began to see Uechi Kanei over-emphasizing whole-body mechanics that allowed him to get a powerful crack on the end of that leg whip. Similarly you will see Nakamatsu and his proteges doing unusual things with their bodies while training in class. They are playing with these whole-body mechanics. During the growth process, things may look a bit unkempt or exaggerated.
When you get to application, that's different. Indeed Rabesa taught me to kick as you suggested, and he's a great fighter. But how he teaches me to get a kick past someone's defenses may be a bit different from how he or I or someone else may practice in kata and hojoundo. For example, sanchin is sanchin, and you chamber all the way back. But when you fight, you throw the punch from a post.
Just keep all this in mind. Understand that folks like me are now breaking rules that I once thought were firm. Indeed when I turn-block-kick in a kata, I throw my butt out and accentuate the turn-in before lifting the leg and then letting things rip deep from within the hips.
You do need to learn the mold, but after you master it you will learn when and how to break it. It all depends on what you are trying to accomplish.
- Bill
Most of us at one time or another are concerned with the "right" way to do things. Follow a number of people or ideas on these forums, and you see the pattern. It's good to be right; it's good to be effective. But when concern turns to obsession, you are blinded to all the other possibilities. When a person cannot let go of a topic, cannot see merit in other ways, and only hears what (s)he want to hear to fit his/her view of the world, then the growth and the learning stops.
Prescriptions for how to do things are guideposts, and not hitching posts. You operate within certain parameters to get a job done, but those parameters can vary depending on the application, the age of the practitioner, the particular talents, and the ability.
I've spent year watching Uechi Kanei doing his front kick, both by sequence of still shots (nice one in George's Uechiryu Karatedo) and by grainy B&W, 16 mm film. The man can kick! But when he's doing his kata, you notice parts of the body moving that...well...it just isn't "precise." His body undulates. His arms fly out. He bobs his head. Not picture perfect... But the man can kick!
Over time, I began to appreciate the origin of these "mistakes." Over time, I began to see Uechi Kanei over-emphasizing whole-body mechanics that allowed him to get a powerful crack on the end of that leg whip. Similarly you will see Nakamatsu and his proteges doing unusual things with their bodies while training in class. They are playing with these whole-body mechanics. During the growth process, things may look a bit unkempt or exaggerated.
When you get to application, that's different. Indeed Rabesa taught me to kick as you suggested, and he's a great fighter. But how he teaches me to get a kick past someone's defenses may be a bit different from how he or I or someone else may practice in kata and hojoundo. For example, sanchin is sanchin, and you chamber all the way back. But when you fight, you throw the punch from a post.
Just keep all this in mind. Understand that folks like me are now breaking rules that I once thought were firm. Indeed when I turn-block-kick in a kata, I throw my butt out and accentuate the turn-in before lifting the leg and then letting things rip deep from within the hips.
You do need to learn the mold, but after you master it you will learn when and how to break it. It all depends on what you are trying to accomplish.
- Bill
Bill- nice post.
I first met Art when visiting George's dojo the winter of 1968. I have two memories of Art. He asked me to spar (error number 1-we never "spared" at the Okinawan school in Kalamazoo) and to allow "realistic" contact wear some protective gear-kendo armor- (error number 2), "here put this helmit on......." It was very entertaining to everyone but me....I suppose that's when I developed the attitude that I liked learning but hated being taught.
I had asked a question about a side thrust kick kind of "Ok, I survived a near death experience--what's the right way????" Art went to this well used heavy bag,(I believe I remember duct tape holding it together) blasted the thing and put his foot into the bag. Foot in bag, laying on the dojo floor, kind of dangling--much to the merriment of all present.
Anyway-your message is clear and I agree.....
Ron
I first met Art when visiting George's dojo the winter of 1968. I have two memories of Art. He asked me to spar (error number 1-we never "spared" at the Okinawan school in Kalamazoo) and to allow "realistic" contact wear some protective gear-kendo armor- (error number 2), "here put this helmit on......." It was very entertaining to everyone but me....I suppose that's when I developed the attitude that I liked learning but hated being taught.
I had asked a question about a side thrust kick kind of "Ok, I survived a near death experience--what's the right way????" Art went to this well used heavy bag,(I believe I remember duct tape holding it together) blasted the thing and put his foot into the bag. Foot in bag, laying on the dojo floor, kind of dangling--much to the merriment of all present.
Anyway-your message is clear and I agree.....
Ron
“Dignitus, virtus et reverentia.”
In Shotokan, we have 2 front kicks:
Front Snap Kick:
Leg is brought up to about a 45 degree angle from being parralell to the floor, with the ankle pointed down and the toes curled back. The foot was snapped out and back and impact was made with the ball of the foot.
This is a speed blow to the torso usually.
Front Thrust Kick:
Leg is brough up tight to abdomen. The knee straightens and the foot is thrust forward leading with the heel.
This is primarily a stopping/jamming kick. Kinda' like a stiff-arm from a running back.
I just been doing the old Shotokan kick in class. I should ask Sensei if I should be doing something different...
Good point Bill.
Front Snap Kick:
Leg is brought up to about a 45 degree angle from being parralell to the floor, with the ankle pointed down and the toes curled back. The foot was snapped out and back and impact was made with the ball of the foot.
This is a speed blow to the torso usually.
Front Thrust Kick:
Leg is brough up tight to abdomen. The knee straightens and the foot is thrust forward leading with the heel.
This is primarily a stopping/jamming kick. Kinda' like a stiff-arm from a running back.
I just been doing the old Shotokan kick in class. I should ask Sensei if I should be doing something different...
For example, sanchin is sanchin, and you chamber all the way back. But when you fight, you throw the punch from a post.
Good point Bill.
Sweeping kicks to remove hand-held devices are famous with Korean stylists. They look cool and are actually fun to do and play with too. But I've been in enough jams, and have been attacked with knives to know better than to even think about doing crap like that for real. One example is when I was either a junior or senior in high school and this kid in my class rushed me with a knife intending on sticking it into my gut. I barely had time to pivot my body sideways to make him miss me [If only people in the dojo could follow through like that with their techniques...] as I sweep my left arm forward deflecting his forward arm and knife into my open locker.It would be a better choice to take out a hand-held weapon than the traditional Uechi front kick, which is a body-injuring kick.
The snapping kick might be faster to target a hand or wrist, and the upward sweeping motion might be helpful for "clearing" said weapon.
Bear in mind I'm only a junior rank; I have no experience with this.
Maybe I'm too old fashioned, but when I want to kick someone I let it fly out there in any way, shape, form, or fashion as fast as I can to get to the one who wants to get to me before he does.
I definitely agree with Bill.Stick with your original idea, and perfect it. You are on the right track.
But personally, I feel that if you are the one left standing when it's overthen you have done it the right way. But if you are doing it for the dojo, then use the mirror until you perfect it to the way you want it to look. It's all good.
Always with an even keel.
-- Allen
-- Allen
