Splashing Hands...

[Ron Klein]

Bill, somehow I expect you knew this question was coming, there is much unfnished business regarding Fuchou Supre-enpi.

We have not commnicated on this katain many years.
It has become one of our dojo favorites.

During my hiatus I assume you have more deeply explored many of the seemingly exotic movements. Could you discuss the movement we called "splashing hands?" Have you found any similar movements in other styles? Has Simon provided any additional information on the history and practice of this kata?

Both my students and I would appreciate your thoughts.

Ron

[Bill Glasheen]

Ron

I haven't had much in the way of communication with Simon about the Fuzhou Suparinpei in quite some time.

As for splashing hands... Simon's explanation was that it was a matter of bringing a charging person down to your side. Maybe... I'm sure you could make it work, and many basic movements in forms can have multiple and highly different interpretations.

Personally, Ron, I come up with my own interpretation based on the context of the movement. "Splashing hands" is done twice.

* The first time you do it, you "spot" your left hand forward and swing the right arm (by itself) in a manner similar to the seisan "groin strikes." The right arm hits the left "spot" hand at about mid arm.

* The second time you do it, you "spot" your left hand forward and do a right (jumping) crescent kick into the left palm.

What is similar about the context of these two situations? To me, I see the "spotting" or "targeting" of the left hand as a connecting theme. So to me, "splashing hands" is probably better coined as "groping hands." Well...maybe not... With young kids in the room, someone might take it to be a Michael Jackson kind of thing. But seriously, we also must consider the geographical context of the form. This is a classic infighting kata from southern China. Sticking hands is the way an infighter "sees" his opponent when up very close.

Why would we make such a big deal about it? Perhaps we must consider that the eyes may be attacked, injured, or otherwise compromised (attack in pitch dark???) in a fight. Actually anyone that knows a bit about boxing history knows that in Cassius Clay's (a.k.a. Muhammad Ali) first fight against Sonny Liston, he was temporarily blinded when some ointment on Liston's glove got in his eyes. Very ugly situation, considering Liston could drop most anyone with a single punch.

When temporarily blinded for whatever reason, getting in close, reading the opponent's position with the hands, and being able to react to that information would be vital. I find I can do it, and probably most anyone who has done a grappling or infighting style can do the same. And interestingly enough Dave Young teaches a kind of "sticking person" stance to his officers with head turned away to protect the eyes. All responses are done entirely by feel.

So that's my 2 cents on the move.

Can you practice this in jiyu format in the dojo? Absolutely. Now and then I do a kind of "blind man sparring" with multiple people in the dojo. Everyone closes their eyes, and then does a search-and-destroy mission by attempting to palm-strike anyone out there in the body and preventing oneself from being struck. Very, very interesting exercise!!! You don't need to tell people how to do a Uechi stance if you let them do this exercise. They do it automatically or else. Particularly the women, unless of course they don't mind giving the men a few freebies...

- Bill

[Evan Pantazi]

Sorry Can't resist...

[Bill Glasheen]

That's fine, Evan. I remember you discussing this. You are always welcome on this forum. Mind you I'm a Missouri kind of guy, but your point is made.

You are suggesting that a combination of redirection and targeted palm striking on the posterior surface can create a nice response to, perhaps, a shooting action on the part of the attacker. Have I about summarized it from 10,000 feet?

- Bill

[Evan Pantazi]

Yes sir... or to paraphrase an onlooker during one such exhibition... "Drop'em lack a sack a taters".

[Evan Pantazi]

I just killed another thread on Canna Sensei's forum like this too.

[Bill Glasheen]

What exactly do you mean by "killing" a thread, Evan? Would it have stopped anyhow without your posts?

Perhaps more information would help. You show what appears to be a KO. You attribute it to "splashing hands." But what were the targets? What was the attack? How did the defender (you I presume) avoid the attack? Where did you strike?

I think also that demonstrations have their limits. What works in a controlled setting - even in front of a bunch of people - is different from what works in the freeform and uncontrolled and lethally adversarial setting. These and myriad other concerns create the controversies, and folks generally don't have the appetite for daily battles. The Kyusho wars will go on forever, and that's fine. The art exists (with all its benefits and all its shortcomings) irrespective of those that attempt to practice it, those that attempt to market it, and those that choose to question. Whether we realize it or not, if we target then we practice the art.

More information, Evan? Perhaps we were all waiting with bated breath. Much healthier to exhale now and then.

- Bill

[Evan Pantazi]

I mean that as an explainaiton of possibility is forwarded the post ended seemingly from that.

The move shown (also a popular idea with slight variation in many arts from Okinawa and China), is the very move in discussion where you sit back in a stance and splash your hands downward. The targets, if you turn up the volume on the video clip so listening and hearing the explaination is easier, are described as was the attack.

Yes all demonstrations have their limitations, as does every techinque each of us have ever taught. How many times have you said this technique will break and elbow, or whatever scenario, but have actually used it in an "freeform and uncontrolled and lethally adversarial setting"?

There was no battle forwarded here just a demonstration and discussion of a possibility... it is not a war or debate, it is another way of using that portion of Kata.

[Bill Glasheen]

Evan

Sorry, I didn't realize you had a "wmv" filed buried under the "jpg" file. I actually had to go into edit mode to see what you did. Clever...

I didn't have Windows Media Player until this evening when I let my computer take the time to download it. Just got to see it.

A couple of thoughts...

1) From a strictly TCM perspective, it appears you are hitting a cluster of traditional acupuncture points with each hand. Actually that's fine, as you're really not going to get a great precision shot with someone diving at you. Are you counting on a simultaneous shot to the two clusters?

2) How would one prevent oneself from doing a nasty face dive on the uke side of this if the KO is that quick? Just wondering. You know me, always looking for detail. The guy actually falls in a manner that is protected. Arms go from hanging back to underneath rather smartly. Head turns to one side (I think). Would he have been capable of initiating this response? Seriously, Evan, watch it closely. One other odd thing (not sure what to make of it) is his legs going from being in a kind of super-leaning zenkutsu to straight out.

How have people responded (him or others) when doing this on other occasions?

3) What do you believe is the success rate of a counterattack like that? Of course the definition of "success" is a pretty squishy proposition. Even w/o any KO, a good hard shot to the back/kidney like that - after a proper avoidance maneuver - could certainly in and of itself create a fighting advantage. I don't like getting hit on either of those spots.

Thanks, Evan. You are generous submitting your work to such scrutiny.

Ron if you get a chance to view the video, tell me what you think. This particular interpretation "fits," no? What do you believe the effectiveness of this?

- Bill

[Evan Pantazi]

No problem.

TCM used, yes there are 3 points on the top hand and 2 on the bottom that form "clusters". They are just where nerves in between each vertebrae emerge, except one of the lower ones is where one nerve ends. Hitting them in motion isn't really that hard with hard practice.. example one ... example two

Who really cares if they do a nasty face dive... in one of those lethal adversarial things? Other than that these examples are just deep level two KO's not intended as a full out "let's watch this" . These are just people lending themselves to feel the effects. So they still have some conditioned response... but look they both belly flop hard as the arms really have no strength. The body will also open up like a swan dive when these targets are hit correctly. You need to know that real intent was not used so the effects although are pretty shocking, ain't nothing like if you lambasted them. Results will vary depending on the thickness or strength of the individuals back muscles.

I usually only do level 2 KO's as they are dramatic enough to get the point across without more serious issues of injury during complete unconscious freefall.

I have done close to a hundred of these but lighter to let people feel the electricity (I will describe later so you can try it), and have done the level of application as seen in the video to 11 people in 4 countries... the first video was in Sweden... never hit him before that.

This is a nice answer for the move in Suparempi, a nice answer for the tackle... even devoid of these specific targets, the body struck well like this will still open up and drop.

OK The experiment for all of you. is here...please keep this to yourselves as I charge for this on my website.

When done lightly you will feel the electricity feel in your back... try it to several people.

[Bill Glasheen]

Evan

I have no doubt given the locations and the nerves/organs that you would be stimulating that there would be some kind of effect. "Electricity" for sure, especially given the upper back shot. Pain down towards the kidney. Interesting combination...

So here's the pregnant question. Given that this is would be a common attack in a MMA arena, how come we don't see this response successfully applied? Grapplers teach a sprawl to this shooting attack. Is there not enough confidence in the outcome to rely on it? Certainly you would have gravity on your side before your center was taken out from underneath you.

Put another way, how would you differentiate between a physiologic curiosity that you can play with in the dojo vs. a reliable response to an effective attack?

That may have to remain as a rhetorical question. It's a bit beyond the scope of explaining choreography in a form.

- Bill

[Sonnon]

Bill,

It has been my experience coaching in MMA that such KOs could RARELY occur in MMA, because of the opponent has an expectation of retaliation; as opposed to the street assailant who attacks when he expects little to no retaliation. (Plus that was an awful shot in the video example. )

The same can be said of the street though in the reverse order. To the degree that one discloses to an opponent one's ability and decision to retaliate, the effectiveness of one's response diminishes... thus significantly diminishing the ability to precision targeting.

Precision targeting happens in MMA, but only one handful of times recorded, coupled with big juice blows not small force application, and inadvertently (so one could argue that it does not happen since it wasn't targeted.) It would be a testimony to the methodology to see a well-accomplished representative of precision targeting step in the ring and demonstrate. If proven in this cauldron, it would be SURE to attract a huge following with respect.

Finally, if there isn't sufficient juice behind precision targeting, when the fortunate KO does not occur, one remains in a precarious position... much like pulling the trigger on an empty chamber, only to see a flash of a smile as the attacker lunges in with his knife.

This is why in my opinion this type of study if included into one's practice, should be appropriately small, an extension of the incumbent technical repertoire, and for significantly accomplished practitioners only.

[Evan Pantazi]

Bill,

We don't see it in the UFC because none of them study it.

The questions you pose and that many others ask is how do you know it will work for real... you can't possibly know anything as the dynamics of each person, attack and situational occurances are always different... have you ever seen a person take a full punch in the head and keep going??? Yet you still practice it????? Or did you ever see someone get ounched in the head and go down...how much of that is psycological (I was hit in the head so I must fall down). But since you ask about this psycological slant... all I can say is try the method I asked you to... see what response you get... don't tell them what to expect before hand and then think about whether or not you psycologically effected them or was it physiological.

Just do it!

[Evan Pantazi]

Sonomon,

I agree that a fighter waiting for an attack is much more likely to brace against it... just like our old demos of standing KO's we took so much slack for. What people do not realize is that it is harder to KO someone that is expecting and bracing... I have said that time and time again. Intent is also a key roll... too much caution will not allow it to work either.

If you throw any technique and you miss you are in that precarious position, the idea is not to stand there and wait for the effect, you continously transition form attack to attack relentlessly until they drop or you do. If you train to hit and stand it dosn't matter what you threw you derserve what you get.

I believe a person should be weened into target aquasition immediately... let it be their full focus. Then train relentlessly on transitional and consistant targeting in unstructured (Not set technique, rather spontaneous and continuous moving drill methods).

[Bill Glasheen]

Most of us practice targeting to some degree or another. Heck, a good fighter tries very hard to get that hooking hit on the front side of a jaw. I have the advantage of having done large animal surgery for years, and so I can often visualize things on people that are just beneath the surface. When we practice kata in class, I now make students do bunkai I choreograph on the spot, and I make them softly hit the targets so they will begin to experience both ends of a technique or series. Whenever possible, I give anatomy lessons or - on occasion - use a traditional acupuncture label for a point (like TW behind the ear). No need to preach about doing.

It's the dramatic KOs that intrigue/puzzle/concern me. Beyond the safety issue, I just wonder about a technique like the one displayed in this thread. In the repeated demos, it appears to be so effective that it's a mystery to me why a fighter wouldn't be training and using such a response for an MMA affair.

Scott's points are well taken, as are Evan's responses. Now whether or not one chooses to "invest" heavily in this path is really a personal one. I think I agree with Evan to a point that one should at least TRY to target early in one's training, but I think I swing on the side of Scott in terms of expectations in various venues. Personally I think this stuff works best in lower stress environments where precision targeting and finer coordination patterns are more likely to be successful. The force continuum is broad, and it doesn't hurt to have lots of "creative" options if you can afford the time (and expense) to train accordingly.

- Bill