Tragedy in process in Russia

[KZMiller]

Horrific.

http://my.aol.com/news/news_story.psp?t ... 0001511968

My thoughts are with the families. How devastating. Truly evil. It doesn't get more clear cut than this for me. They're evil. There's no other word for it.

Kami

[Bill Glasheen]

What else can you say to this? It's evil, and it is very tragic.

Let's not forget Hamas bombings in Israel, with a photo on the cover of today's NYT of a dead child hanging out of the bus window. And then of course there is the wickedness going on in Sudan - systematic rapes and ethnic cleansing.

"We" are cast as evil by many in the world who turn their backs to this behavior. Where is the outrage?

Don't get me started...

- Bill

[KZMiller]

Here's an update. I'm just beside myself. Some of the kids in the school are my kids' age.

http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=3446886

It just goes to show you people can justify doing anything. I bet they feel like real brave heroes, holding children hostage to free their buddies. I bet their buddies are proud. Do they find it strange that no one else is impressed by their 'courage'?

Kami

[HALFORD E. JONES]

they probably will go in an kill them all, including the hostages. After all, it is simply another WACO in principle. He saw the point. I said that governments must and will show power and that killing everyone keeps the government in control. And, if you know now, the school children are dead. The hostage takers, I believe may be dead and the commandos that stormed the school....not sure...... Calling people evil and such really doesn't do much more than point out that man is capable of everything,as some philosophers have pointed out. Over the years, the centuries, people have killed and slaughtered other people and the killing going on in the Sudan hardly raises any eyebrows here?????

[benzocaine]

Over the years, the centuries, people have killed and slaughtered other people and the killing going on in the Sudan hardly raises any eyebrows here?????

Good point.

It just seems that we are more willing to sympathise with Russia because we have a common enemy... Islamosick#u##s . We also see Russia as similiar to us in many ways, and can actually empathise with them when we see school kids being held hostage. Also, Russia could be a strong alli in a global war against terrorism/ Islamosick#u##s.


It doesn't make ignoring Sudan right.

[KZMiller]

You mean this?:
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/fromthe ... 982689.htm

The killings in Sudan IMHO have been outdone by the terrorists in Russian in sheer scope in one horrifying incident, therefore the big headline, just like other big disasters get big headlines. (The smaller disasters get headlines only if they're close to home. That's just the way news sells.) The violence in Sudan has been a long, drawn-out affair and news stories percolate through the news and web for those interested in finding them. A change would get a lot more attention than this constant daily tragedy, for example bigger scope attacks. People would be just as outraged, IMHO, if 300 school children died after being held hostage by Janjaweed in Sudan. Bear in mind that Putin has been fighting this problem for a long time off the main news headlines, so his country is not getting any better coverage than Sudan. News is so massive and the world is so big, you learn about just the biggest, most horrid stuff that is not directly relevent your country anyway regardless of where you live. I'm not sure what you're driving at.

According to Reuters the matter is under the pervue of UN. I don't see much difference in effectiveness between the UN and the Russian government in dealing with their respective conflicts and trying to mitigate suffering and loss.

I don't understand how you can compare this to Waco, btw. In Waco it wasn't entirely clear that the children were in any danger from their parents in the complex, and opinions vary wildly as to who did what right or wrong. In Russia, these were terrorists, strangers to the area, who came into a school full of innocent children with weapons and a desire to have their demands met. I don't think anyone has any question in their minds about who was right and wrong here. I'm frankly surprised that anyone would suggest that this sort of behavior is justified and that the terrorists pulled a good move doing this.

Kami

[jorvik]

You only have to look at Rhodesia ( as was ).it had one of the best economies in Africa.farming always produced a profit.and then the lefty elite in the UK started making noices about how whites were opressing Blacks.............. started putting embargoes on imports, till eventually a last vestige of the British Empire collapsed.and Blacks were allowed to rule Blacks......and the name was changed to Zimbabwe.and now the oppression suffered by Blacks is worse than anything that the Whites introduced.their economy, once so profitable has withered.and there is danger that they cannot produce enough to feed themselves.but hey, that's what they wanted
............and with Chechnya..and all these other places..they are so emphatic about what they want that they are prepared to kill kids to get it.......I don't understand it, but I do know that terrorism after a time looks respectable.becomes acceptable.and is accepted...look at Ireland, the ira killed kids.........Americans supported them.and everyone was bending over backwards
.clinton and blair to give them what they wanted..........I dunno what the answer is.........the world that I live in now scares me much more than when I was a young man

[KZMiller]

To me the difference between what happened at the school (and what's happening in Sudan) vs. the IRA is that the IRA didn't specifically target kids or women or anyone else. The kids/women/people happened to be there when the bomb went off. Having said that, many Americans may have been sympathetic with the IRA cause but I don't think any of them approved of bombings, and I think many that would have been supportive of the IRA's cause *didn't* support it because they were terrorists. Deliberately targeting a school for hundreds of child hostages, and then gunning them down when they try to escape ... yes, causes can be important enough to die for, and kill for, but you have to draw the line somewhere! There is a point where the success of a cause is not worth the suffering of others, especially of innocents, doubly especially children. I feel these terrorists stepped so far over the line that I catagorize them with the most heinous criminals. They've lost all perspective. Maybe they became that way because of the conditions in which they grew up and the war. That makes it understandable in the sense that I can see the lineage of violence, but it doesn't make it excusable.

Kami

[TSDguy]

I wonder about:

a) the history of murdering children in order to achieve a war goal

and

b) a psychological analysis of these criminals.

Information?

[Bill Glasheen]

I'm not sure there's much of a history to talk about here, because - as they say - history is written by the victors. There's nothing to be proud of here. A civilized society easily will find a reason conveniently to forget things like this ever happened. And the innocent will not be here to plead their case.

Let's not forget a few things here.

First, the incident at the school was part of a broader campaign. It included the downing of two civilian aircraft, and subway bombings.

Second, let's consider the behavior of the terrorists BEFORE nude children broke out, fleed for their lives, and were gunned down by the terrorists. Does anyone know why the children were nude? It's because around a thousand of them were packed into a hot gymnasium for days with nothing to eat or drink. The hostage takers treated them like inanimate objects tossed in a trash bin. It is reported that they were drinking their own urine to survive.

Furthermore, Russia now reports that a number of foreigners of Arab descent were among the hostage takers.

Could it be that these are among the same folks that brought you filmed, ritualistic, slow beheadings of innocent civilians as something to be proud of and displayed on the internet?

It doesn't surprise me that these atrocities are occuring. What DOES anger and disappoint me is that most people would rather pretend it doesn't exist, and attack the messenger(s) when they bring it to our general attention. They want sanitized reports, and a quick end to the story. This is equally true of the ridiculous behavior in the Sudan.

Yes, this is the most horrific evil imaginable. Yes, it causes great psychological trauma even to think about it, much less to witness it or be victim of it. That's what the perpetrators want. They seek to achieve their ends in a manner unachievable by other means in the past. They seek to intimidate civilized man into retreat and submission.

Different people will look at the same thing and have unique reactions and responses. When I see this, I see evil and I want the "whatever it takes" attitude turned back on those who insist on repeatedly inflicting it upon us. And to those who would prefer "more civilized" approaches to dealing with this behavior, I have one word - Shut - up!!!!

One final note... I'm biting my tongue on the Irish, and glad someone spoke up. And I'm equally baffled by the suggestion that the Russian government did anything wrong in response to what the hostage takers were doing to these children. I only regret that they did not have the information needed to act sooner and possibly save more of the children. Responding forcefully to this evil is not a failure of diplomacy or imagination. It is an absolute necessary evil. This is - after all - why we need law enforcement and standing armies.

- Bill

[jorvik]

Quote
" The kids/women/people happened to be there when the bomb went off. "

that's a bit like saying that kids/women/people happened to be in the twin towers when the planes hit
quote
" I'm biting my tongue on the Irish, and glad someone spoke up."
Why's that Bill...frightened of appearing a hypocrite
.....it's acceptable to give funds to the ira??.because your great,great,great grandfather was Irish??...Well my Family are Irish..and I don't find the ira acceptable
all atrocities are evil,bad,twisted.call it what you will.that is why I opposed the war in Iraq...9,000 civiliians killed at the behest of a Moron who hasn't even got the balls to go to war himself.who flies his plane in the opposite direction when his country needs him at 9/11
Look at the facts......The US are hardly an example to the rest of the world are they.

[Bill Glasheen]

I'm not going to make any headway with you here, jorvik. You hate Bush. You hate Blair. You live in England. You don't like the IRA. Fine... Your positions are duly noted.

I am offended by your misrepresentation of my views or my actions. Unlike you, BOTH sets of my ancestors fled oppression and life threatening starvation. Many of them served their newly adopted country in various branches of the armed services, putting their lives in danger in the process. One did so at the age of 14, just to have warm meals and clothing. Another who recently visited this Forum is doing so as I type. No ancestors that I know of have contributed to terrorist causes - even the IRA.

Furthermore, the IRA have made peace with your country. Give it up, for Christ's sake, unless you're not happy with the absence of killing and inhuman behavior. You remind me of the loonies here in Richmond still fighting The Civil War. Peace and prosperity are noble ends. There's no point continuing to fan the flames of hate.

This is Kami's thread about a very serious tragedy in Russia. Perhaps these pictures will help bring the subject back into focus.

Photos from the scene

I don't recall Bush, Blair, the IRA, or any other person on your list of people you don't like ever holding a thousand school children hostage and treating them far worse than rabid dogs. I also don't recall said folks flying planeloads of innocent civilians into buildings harboring around ten thousand more innocent people from all over the world. You are a little off base.

Save it for another thread if you would please. Your positions on world politics would be better served by doing so.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Russian siege prompts horrified self-criticism in Arab media

CAIRO (AP) — Muslims worldwide are the main perpetrators of terrorism, a humiliating and painful truth that must be acknowledged, a prominent Arab writer and television executive wrote Saturday, as Middle East media and officials expressed horror at the bloody rebel siege of a Russian school.

Unusually forthright self-criticism followed the end of the hostage crisis, along with warnings that such actions inflict more damage to the image of Islam than all its enemies could hope. Arab leaders and Muslim clerics denounced the school seizure as unjustifiable and expressed their sympathy.

***

- USA Today 9/4/2004

[KZMiller]

My point was that the IRA didn't deliberately target children. The bombings the IRA did were still absolutely wrong. I was just trying to point out the difference in Intent and Scale.

The headline declaring that Muslims are denouncing this action gives me hope.

Kami

[Bill Glasheen]

The picture is beginning to become a little more clear now.

Russia school seizure was long planned

***

The band of hostage-takers — some reports have said there were over 30 — were demanding independence for Chechnya and were a mix of ethnicities, including Chechens and up to 10 Arabs, according to Russian officials.

After the hostage-taking ended Friday in a frenzy of shooting and explosions, Russian news agencies cited unnamed security sources as saying that the planners of the raid were believed to have scouted at least two schools in Beslan.

"Judging by everything, they felt the better one for their goals was the main building of School No. 1 with its half-basement gymnasium annex, where the floor had to be replaced," the ITAR-Tass news agency quoted a law-enforcement official as saying.

"The bandits were able to bring into the school a large quantity of weapons, ammunition, equipment and explosives, under the guise of planks, cement and other building material, enough to defend the seized place for a long period," the official said.

***

Umar Sikoyev, a lawyer for a captured militant identified as Nur-Pashi Kulayev, said the band's leader did not tell them what their mission was and that after the seizure a fierce argument broke out in the band, with several objecting that taking children hostage was wrong.

The raid's commander shot the dissidents' leader to death and then detonated the suicide belts worn by two women raiders by remote control to establish order in the band, Sikoyev told The Associated Press.

Does this whole thing not look very familiar?

- Bill