Nan Pa Toro Ken

Mills75 · Post by **Mills75** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:43 am

I read something by Sensei Gordi Breyette that said at one time our style may have been referred to as Southgroup Mantis Fist or Nan Pa Toro Ken.First of all I hope I'm getting this right because I respect Breyette Sensei very much and this is what I took from my reading but I could be false since I am far from an expert.I just wondered if anyone of the experts within this forum could enlighten me and provide some more info about this cause it's very interesting I also will probably write to Breyette Sensei and ask him if he could provide more about this topic since I have written to him before and he is a very good man and has been very gracious in repsonding to my mail.Well anyway just curious about furthering my knowledge of this and thank you.

Jeff

hoshin · Post by **hoshin** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 1:00 pm

let us all know if you find out more. i have been looking into uechi roots a lot lately and from what i have found we are related southern white crane. but i have never heard about mantis style. however it has been rumored that goju- ryu founder Miyagi spent some time studying mantis style.

Hoshin
~~~~~

Glenn · Post by **Glenn** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 2:46 pm

There are similarities between Uechi Ryu and Southern Mantis (also called Chuka Shaolin). The primary similarity is the importance of the shoken (called Phoenix-eye Fist in Chinese styles) to both. The shoken aspect of Southern Mantis is shown in these two images (although they are a bit small):

Here is some good info on Southern Mantis:
http://www.reddragonkungfu.com/chuka.htm
The primary strategy of Southern Mantis stylists is to work in close and then fire off a rapid succession of shokens to vital points, machine-gun like as they put it.

Note that Southern Mantis bears no resemblence to Northern Mantis. While Northern resembles the insect, Southern does not in spite of having Mantis in its name.

There are some good books on Southern Mantis as well:
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/bookse ... 1272&itm=1
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/bookse ... 1785&itm=2

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 6:59 pm

Great link, Glenn! Indeed that sounds a lot like Kanbun's original style, doesn't it? Van would probably love the decription of that style vis-a-vis the fighting philosophy behind the original 3 Uechi kata.

No doubt the Fukien practitioners learned from each other.

Be careful with the language, Jeff. The name you give is not a Chinese name, and ken actually means fist (redundant to say ken fist style). But then again, we often say wauke block (circle block block).

Give my best to Gordi when you chat with him.

- Bill

Glenn · Post by **Glenn** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 9:29 pm

Hmmm, convert the Seisan knee strike into a low cross kick, and you might get something looking like this (mirror image of course):

Glenn · Post by **Glenn** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 9:33 pm

Too bad they don't have video clips, this stance has some similar familiarities:

Glenn · Post by **Glenn** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 9:42 pm

Another good site about the Chinese styles that hail from the same general area as Uechi Ryu:
http://www.shaolinarts-ky.net/smhistory.cfm

Some of the Fujian styles were actually used in battles against the Manchu and also in the Boxer Rebellion, and many of the southern styles originated from this common root, for example: · Wu Zu Quan or Go Cho Kune (Five Ancestors Boxing) · Yong Chun Quan (Wing Chun) · Fujian Bai He Quan (Fujian White Crane Boxing) · Bak Mei (White Eyebrow) · Lung Ying (Dragon boxing) · and the styles we are interested in, known with the generic name of Southern Praying Mantis. Some of these styles are so technically related that seem to be just variations of each other with different legends about their origins. There is not to much difference between most of these southern styles, the differences are small and they share lots of technical similarities, for example the starting stance, chain punches, rounded shoulders stances, elbows kept close to the body protecting the ribs, tight stance protecting the groin, the use of whipping power, the use of phoenix eye fist (except for dragon style).

Glenn · Post by **Glenn** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 9:47 pm

Also from http://www.shaolinarts-ky.net/smhistory.cfm:

Many times it has been said that Fujian Bai He Quan (Fujian White Crane Boxing) and Wu Zu Quan are the origin of the Japanese Karate. It is true that Wu Zu Quan style has exactly the same Sanchin form that the Uechi Ryu and Goju Karate styles (with some differences in the tension, and the Chinese version includes two-man version). But Uechi Ryu has a form called Som Bo Gin (Three Arrow Fist), the most famous southern praying mantis form, and both form have similar movements and also the Uechi Ryu foot movements mimic those of Southern Mantis. In addition most Okinawan and Japanese forms follow the same numerology, such as, San Chin Kata (3 steps), Seipa Kata (18 ), Sanseiru kata (36) and Pechurin Kata (108). May be these similarities between Karate and Southern Mantis are due to the common origin in the Fujian temple, but may be was Southern Praying Mantis, and not Wu Zu Quan the style that originated the Okinawan Karate...

I think they errored by corresponding 18 with Seipa instead of Seisan. Goju Ryu has a "Sepai" kata in addition to their Seisan. I have seen Sanseiru called Pechurin before though. What is Uechi Ryu's "Som Bo Gin (Three Arrow Fist)" form though?

benzocaine · Post by **benzocaine** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 10:06 pm

http://www.yaukungmun.com.au/technique_workshop.htm

Here's another southern Chinese style that utilizes the pheonix eye strike.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 10:32 pm

Glenn

They are not in error here. Goju does have an "18" kata, and seipai is the name.

The authors of these forms were big on numerology, and connecting it with Buddhist traditions.

- Bill

Glenn · Post by **Glenn** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 10:54 pm

Bill Glasheen wrote:Glenn

They are not in error here. Goju does have an "18" kata, and seipai is the name.

The authors of these forms were big on numerology, and connecting it with Buddhist traditions.

- Bill

Oops, that's right, I was confusing Seisan with 18...but Seisan is 13 and Sepai is 18.

Mills75 · Post by **Mills75** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 1:12 am

thanks for the info guys i'm going to look and read into all the stuff on these links.it's a very interesting subject and it's interesting to try and see the links and possibilities.thanks again.

Jeff

HALFORD E. JONES · Post by **HALFORD E. JONES** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 6:33 pm

THE FIVE ANCESTORS FIST is found in the Philippines and Malaysia, where the spelling is slightly different(I can't recall it right now) and there is a book available on this at Tuttle Publishing, which was written by my good friend, Alex Co, who also had a version of the same work published in the Philippines, which I have. The new work, edited by Mark V. Wiley, is slightly different in several ways. It should be noted,however, that Ngo Cho Kungfu has the form Samchien(Sanchien) which is similar to Sanchin, but,as pointed out, the tension involved is slightly different. Ngo Cho is considered by many to be a 'hard' style, with arm pounding exercises, blocking drills(two-man),etc. They also have the sai or as some call it, the iron ruler,etc. which has a unique form. The phoenix-eye fist is also,as mentioned, used in this style. You can see a listng of articles at RAPID MAGAZINE website,which is published by Daniel Go in the Philippines and also some articles,etc. at the website for FILIPINO MARTIAL ARTS MAGAZINE. You can see photos of Alex Co, Mark Wiley,etc. at the same website by going to the galleries.

Karateka · Post by **Karateka** » Sat Sep 18, 2004 4:46 pm

Shotokan uses the pheonix eye in Hangetsu, I believe that's the only kata...I could be wrong and often am.

Nan Pa Toro Ken

Nan Pa Toro Ken

thank you

NGO CHO KUNE(GO CHO KUNGFU,ETC.