Secret Draft Uncovered

[patriot]

Please forward this email to every health care professional, medical school and medical student possible:

Before today there was a high degree of concern that the so-called Bush Doctrine of preemptive wars would lead inexorably to a draft. Bush has responded by stating in essence: "Read my Lips: No New Drafts." Many find the President less than credible when he speaks of war: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/19/opini ... ugman.html

With good reason. It turns out that while George Bush was running all over the country pledging no new draft, his Administration had obtained a confidential report that they paid an outside contractor to compile on how to draft medical professionals! http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/ ... and19.html

This must be one of the great campaign frauds in history, and while it is only "medical professionals" today, it will be our children generally tomorrow.

Please fight back! Send this email to everyone you know. The plan is set. http://www.gjusa.com/news/pressReleaseD ... sp?id=4141. Either resist or pack up for the Middle East. http://www.time.com/time/press_releases ... 09,00.html.

For details see: www.stop-the-bush-draft.us

[Andrew Evans]

I was going to point out that one of the links doesn't work until I played around with it. Anyway, try http://www.gjusa.com/news/pressReleaseD ... sp?id=4141 (without the period at the end)

As for the draft, I have regularly heard that our troops are overextended. So it doesn't take a genius to realize that we will probably have a draft with the current administration. But what makes you think that John Kerry's policies will be different?

[IJ]

Not a great idea to me. I wonder how much trouble they'd have ASKING medical institutions to stretch their resources in a time of crisis. Seems like that is a first step. We do have an ethic we go where the need is. I have a friend who worked 72 hours duriung a snow emergency. That plastic surgeon in rhode island worked several straight days after the nightclub fire. Mobilization was heavy and volunteers thick after 9/11... As for me, they wouldn't LET me work...

[Bill Glasheen]

Nice try...

Do we have to endure this troll? There's absolutely no evidence whatsoever backing up a draft of either military or medical personnel.

Why in God's name would anyone want to screw up the best military force in the world - the ALL volunteer army - by diluting it with unwilling draftees? It makes no bloody sense.

And why would they need to draft medical personnel when they can get volunteers by paying for their outrageous medical school bills? Hey, most of us with advanced degrees have been there, done that. I sold my soul to NIH for 4 years by accepting a trainingship grant that paid my way through grad school. I had to work for slave labor wages doing basic science research, and expose myself to ionizing gamma radiation in the process. But you know what? It was the best training I could have possibly asked for, and provided me with about 25 publications in the peer-reviewed literature. Not bad.

Med and law students who get their education paid for get experience immediately, unlike their private enterprise counterparts. I know - I've had karate students who have done it. (Cara Lee Macdonald in law school, Mical Kupke in medical school). They do not regret their experiences.

Draft this, troll!

- Bill

[patriot]

Below are ten reasons why Bush would have a draft. If you visit http://www.stop-the-bush-draft.us and scroll down, you will find live links for every single point.

TEN REASONS A VOTE FOR BUSH IS A VOTE FOR A DRAFT

1. BUSH SENIOR ADVISOR KARL ROVE HAS ALREADY SOLICITED AND OBTAINED GOP SUPPORT FOR A DRAFT IN CONGRESS.

2. THE BUSH PENTAGON PLANS “5 OR 6” REGIME CHANGES AFTER NOVEMBER 2.

3. THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION IS PURSUING THE NEOCON VISION OF “WW IV” WHICH THEY DEFINE AS A CRUSADE AGAINST RADICAL ISLAM WHICH FESTERS "EVERYWHERE" IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

4. EVEN ONE REGIME CHANGE—IRAN—WOULD REQUIRE CONSCRIPTION.

5. THE BUSHIES HAVE ALREADY LEAKED PLANS FOR REGIME CHANGE IN IRAN.

6. THE SELECTIVE SERVICE PROMISED TO GIVE BUSH THE GREEN LIGHT ON 3/31/05 FOR A DRAFT BEGINNING ON 6/15/05 AND THE SELECTIVE SERVICE IS FILLING DRAFT BOARD POSITIONS.

7. "IT DOESN'T TAKE A NUCLEAR SCIENTIST" TO SEE BUSH CANNOT MUSTER THE SUPPORT OF OUR ALLIES AND WILL NEED AMERICAN TROOPS TO COMPENSATE FOR THE LOSS OF ALLIED TROOPS; EVEN CONSERVATIVES CALL HIM THE "MOST DETESTED" WORLD LEADER. FLASH (10/18/04): GOP FOREIGN POLICY STAR SAYS BUSH ACTED "CONTEMPOUSLY" OF OUR ALLIES. GEORGE BUSH IS BY ALL ACCOUNTS UNABLE TO MUSTER ANY DEGREE OF MULTILATERAL SUPPORT FOR HIS WARS OF CHOICE; THIS MEANS US TROOPS WILL DIE ALONE IN COMBAT.

8. THE BUSHIES HAVE TAKEN MEASURES TO STOP FLIGHT TO CANADA, TO ELIMINATE COLLEGE DEFERMENTS, AND MAKE EVASION HARDER.

9. THEY ALREADY HAVE A DRAFT PLAN (OBTAINED UNDER FOIA) AND IT DETAILS A DRAFT THAT INCLUDES WOMEN AND EXTENDS UP TO AGE 34.

10. ASK THE EXPERTS: COL. RON RAY; PROF. DON ZILLMAN; PROF. NED LEBOW; COL. DAVID HACKWORTH.

[patriot]

Did someone ask about John Kerry?

I believe a Kerry administration will be different. See http://www.stop-the-bush-draft.us/pages/5/index.htm for live links proving the reasons below.

FIVE REASONS JOHN KERRY WOULD NOT DO A DRAFT

1. KERRY HAS ALREADY BLASTED BUSH FOR THE "BACK DOOR" DRAFT

2. KERRY HAS SEEN COMBAT; IT IS REAL FOR HIM NOT IMAGINARY

3. KERRY HAS TRIED TO INCREASE MILITARY PAY; BUSH HAS MADE CUTS

4. KERRY CAN RALLY ALLIES; BUSH HAS TORCHED ALLIANCES WORLDWIDE

5. KERRY WOULD STAND FOR RE-ELECTION IN 2008; IMPOSING A DRAFT WOULD BE POLITICAL SUICIDE

[Panther]

Nice try...

Do we have to endure this troll?

Not if he turns out to be a troll...

We're always suspicious of someone who joins new, posts a couple of times and starts tossing bombs.

For now, and as long as he wants to follow the rules, he can post his opinion like anyone else. However, as the rules say, he needs to do his best to back up his positions with independent, (hopefully non-partisan) sources and cites like everyone else. OR say they're just his opinions.

I sold my soul ... for slave labor wages ..., and {had to} expose myself to ionizing gamma radiation in the process.

Now I'm bummed out... I always thought it was your inner-Uechi-CHI, now you tell us the real reason for that "special glow" you have!

Draft this, troll!

Second the motion!

[Valkenar]

I agree that this thread is a bit trollish, but that by itself doesn't render his point moot. I won't try to defend his point or anything, but I don't think the possibility of a Bush-initiated draft is totally without evidence. Did you actually look at the link he posted? It's fairly sensational and overstated, but it's not utter hogwash.

Will Kerry be different? I don't know. I think the chances of a draft occuring with Kerry are less than with Bush.

I know one thing though, there's no way I'm going to fight in an immoral war. Hopefully I won't have to go to prison instead.

[Bill Glasheen]

Will Kerry be different? I don't know. I think the chances of a draft occuring with Kerry are less than with Bush.

How can you say that, Justin? Because this is a situation you'd like to see so young people of draft age won't vote for Bush?

Here are some facts.

1) Kerry is the only candidate who has hinted at having a draft. In response to a question from a reporter, he said he couldn't rule it out. (I heard this myself. Not sure if I can find a citation)

2) Bush repeatedly has said he would not have a draft.

3) The concept of a draft is counterintuitive to Republican thinking. They hate government. They would rather the military be as "private" as possible. Drafting people is philosophically counterintuitive to this type of thinking.

4) One of the reasons for the enormous successes of the armed services in the last few military conflicts is the morale that only can be achieved with an all volunteer army.

5) The military has exceeded its recruitment quotas. In fact, a depressed economy like the one we have now makes it easy for them to get quality candidates.

6) George Bush listens to and trusts his military advisors. He very much has a hands off policy when it comes to execution of military campaigns. The last thing his generals would be telling him now is that they want to draft people like Justin who do not want to fight. (No offense, Justin. Not personal. It's just fact.)

7) George Bush is trained as an M.B.A. Against the advice of some whining retired generals who are advisors of other campaigns, he intentionally is limiting the number of troops in Iraq. Intentionally. Why? Trust me, I have first hand knowledge of this. M.B.A.s are famous for making people try to do more with less. So far so good...

8) George Bush's philosophy is NOT to increase the number of troops in places like Iraq. On the contrary, his philosophy is to train Iraqis to defend their own country ASAP. This makes sense both from the standpoint of the principle of freedom which he preaches so heavily as well as the fiscal mindset he brings to military campaigns.

9) Republicans discovered that Democrats were floating this draft idea just to put fear in young voters. So you know what they did? They very recently introduced legislation which ruled AGAINST having a draft. Of course once this was put to a vote so the public could see who would vote for it and who against, guess what? It passed almost unanimously. Ya think???

Bottom line... This is a much discredited campaign designed to make young voters fear voting for George Bush. George Bush repeatedly has told people there will be no draft. Unlike other candidates, he does what he says. I believe his enemies call that trait of his "hard headed."

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Panther

I will oblige your desire to be "fair and balanced" here, and allow all parties to present their cases.

I believe Factcheck.org is a reputable source. (University of Pennsylvania based political research organization). Please check this out. As I alluded to above, this is a very old, moldy fear/smear campaign.

Draft Fears Fueled by Inaccurate E-mails

If the gentleman in question here can come up with sources more reputable than the research group at an Ivy League school, well then he is a better man than all of us.

- Bill

[RACastanet]

The key point here is that the Pentagon is absolutely against a draft. As Bill stated above, the all volunteer professional military is working quite well.

One very good example of a conscript military is the Russian Army and Navy. The US did in weeks what the Russian army could not do in a decade in Afghanistan. Why? The Russian army was (and still is) made up largely of conscripts. This was a very poorly motivated force that just could not deal with a rag tag bunch of fighters (using US material) even though their equipment was superior. Conscript armies are just not as effective as professional armies.

The Russian Navy is not much better. A Russian Admiral was visiting Norfolk a few years ago and observed the massive run for the gate by sailors going on weekend leave from their carriers, subs etc. He asked what was happening and when told they are allowed to depart for the weekend he asked "how do you get them to come back"? In the Russian Navy, sailors must be restricted to their ships or they will leave and not return.

Another issue is training. The modern weapons systems take a lot of expensive training to utilize and maintain. A two year draft stint would be inefficient from a training a cost standpoint. It just would not work. By the time you had a well trained and reliable NCO or specialist, the term of the draft would be up.

The current head of NATO in Europe is the former Commandant of the Marine Corps, General Jones (creator of the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program and also was the one who granted me the waivers required to train as a Marine even though I exceeded the age requirements by about 20 years). General Jones is recreating the massive US forces that were poised to face the USSR on the plains of Eastern Europe in massive tank and artillary battles.

Jones is repositioning hundreds of thousands of troops based in what was West Germany and is dispersing them to smaller and more practical locations throughout Eastern Europe. Tens of thousands of these troops will return to the US and will be available for future deployments in the battle against world terrorism. Two divisions will be freed up in this reorganization.

No, no need or desire for a draft.

Rich

[Panther]

Thank you Bill... and Rich...

From the website Bill posted:

"the bills are sponsored only by Democrats, and there's not the slightest evidence that the Bush administration is pushing for them, quietly or otherwise."

As previously written and as contained in this forum's rules:

Posts should be backed up with sources and cites... If you don't have sources and cites, then it's just your opinion... and everyone has an opinion just as everyone has a rearend... and they all generally stink...

THEREFORE, unless someone can post a VERY good reason or this thread refuses to die a swift death, I will be closing this topic tomorrow... If someone has something to add, it had better be good or it may disappear before I close this thread.

And one final comment... I am still giving patriot the benefit of the doubt that it was just a forward without checking the facts as suggested in the website Bill posted... However, as everyone knows, if it turns out that someone IS a troll, I start to growl and I've been known to growl directly to ISPs and the troll's place of employment.

The End...

[Pussyslayer]

I wonder if any of us are really able to discern information and data and not sift through it based on our own social and political backgrounds. When a group of like-minded individuals like you are doing the quarter-backing, then we have what might be called the Uechi Fellowship of Fools.

Tough Issue moderators. Sort of reminds me of the baggage checkers at the airport, filled with the sense of their own self importance. Maybe we should state that those that can - do. And those that can't just write intoTough Issues or spray themselves with pepper spray? And growling? Honey, you are just swinging your little flacid pee pee in the breeze. Pathetic. Now what are you going to do this time limp dick? Call my Congressman?

[patriot]

While factcheck.org is usually reliable, their article on a draft was written on June 15th- old news. New material and evidence has surfaced since that date.

The links posted below are only a couple of days old. Please visit them to read about a confidential report recently uncovered from the Selective Service agency.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2004/10/19/news/draft.html

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/ ... and19.html

http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/living ... 955672.htm

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/19/polit ... oref=login

Does anyone here know how to obtain a government report under the Freedom of Information Act?

I thank you in advance for your openmindedness and the right to have various viewspoints.

Regards,

[Kevin Mackie]

I wonder if any of us are really able to discern information and data and not sift through it based on our own social and political backgrounds. When a group of like-minded individuals like you are doing the quarter-backing, then we have what might be called the Uechi Fellowship of Fools.

Tough Issue moderators. Sort of reminds me of the baggage checkers at the airport, filled with the sense of their own self importance. Maybe we should state that those that can - do. And those that can't just write intoTough Issues or spray themselves with pepper spray? And growling? Honey, you are just swinging your little flacid pee pee in the breeze. Pathetic. Now what are you going to do this time limp dick? Call my Congressman?

Access, how can we miss you when you don't go away?

MH, You don't seem so tightly wrapped for a person working on such high tech projects. What? Your company doesn't do any mental testing before hiring?
Maybe forwarding a few of your posts to your HR dept will enlighten them?
Because I presume they would care more than your congressman. Unless of course your research has national security implications.

Panther do you have the address of his firm? I'd be glad to provide it to you.

Take care of yourself.