Catholics, Christians, and bears, OH MY...

[Panther]

Show me again where you said "way to go granny" in the original post? But you did strongly infer that she is not a strong Catholic:

But if she isn't going because she feels she doesn't need to, then by definition she cannot call herself a strong Catholic.

And again I ask you, straight out, Bill: What gives you the authority to determine what a "Good" or "Strong" Catholic is? Who made you the final arbiter of what Catholic and what isn't? Who made you Defender of the Faith?

Well, I'm not Catholic. I might decided to follow that and I might not, but that's not really the issue. The issue is saying that you are something and then breaking the rules that are required to be that thing. The "authority" isn't Bill's or mine, it comes from the Vatican. In the Catholic doctrines, it is clearly written that one should attend Mass at least once a week. For a long time that meant Sunday only and the Catholic churches routinely held (and still do) a number of Masses on Sunday. However, because of the changing times and to still keep with the weekly Mass, the Saturday afternoon/evening Mass has been added... as well as Wednesday evening in some churches. I could go to every Mass that is held every week and I wouldn't be a Catholic because I don't follow some other rules, but the truth is that according to the Vatican, in order to be considered a good, practicing, (strong) Catholic, you must (not should, not might, not most of the time... MUST) attend Mass at least once a week and also on Holy days. THEREFORE, according to the doctrines and rules of the Catholic church as put forth right now from the Vatican, someone who does NOT go to Mass at least once a week (or, if unable to attend has the Eucharist brought to them, which is available to anyone that asks), then that person is NOT considered a "good, practicing Catholic". Don't shoot the messenger, I didn't make the rules, I just read/was taught them.

Now, if Bill wants to continue this... Or Rich wants to continue the Swift Boat Veterans part of the other thread... Or Gene wishes to continue this... then this is the thread so that we don't hijack the other thread anymore than has already happened. Oh, and Ian or anyone else... jump right in. The more the merrier.

Happy Yule...

[ljr]

But if she isn't going because she feels she doesn't need to, then by definition she cannot call herself a strong Catholic.

And again I ask you, straight out, Bill: What gives you the authority to determine what a "Good" or "Strong" Catholic is? Who made you the final arbiter of what Catholic and what isn't? Who made you Defender of the Faith?

from my memory of catholic school there are 6 precepts (laws) of the catholic church:

1. Attend Mass on Sundays and holy days of obligation.

2. Confess your sins at least once a year.

3. Receive Holy Communion at least during the Easter season.

4. Keep holy the holy days of obligation.

5. Observe the prescribed days of fasting and abstinence.

6. The faithful also have the duty of providing for the material needs of the Church, each according to his or her abilities.

if you are a good/practicing Catholic, you MUST follow all 6... sorry, them the rules.

for more... check out:

http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/holy.html#PRECEPTS

Cheers,
ljr

PS: Merry Christmas to all!

[Bill Glasheen]

Merry Christmas to you all too!

- Bill

[Norm Abrahamson]

I was always a trouble maker in Hebrew and Sunday School. But in the spirit of the Devil's Advocate, here's my question.

What if I follow all 6 rules religiously, (Pun intended) but in my heart, I don't believe in God or the virgin birth? Can I still be Catholic?

Sincerely,

Norm Abrahamson

[ljr]

What if I follow all 6 rules religiously, (Pun intended) but in my heart, I don't believe in God or the virgin birth? Can I still be Catholic?

No, these are rules meant to maintain a "minimum in the spirit prayer and moral effort". These precipts are meant to be your requirements to the "physical church" there are other "rules" that require you to believe in the churches teachings.

been a long time since I thought of anyof this (I am no longer anywhere near a good Catholic, so please take my recolections with a grain of salt)

Cheers,
Louis

[Norm Abrahamson]

Louis:

Of course your reply makes perfect sense. Compliance with rites and traditions without an unerlying belief is empty. So if we have "established" that the core beliefs in God and Jesus as His Son are what is most important, to what extent are participation in the communal rites you described necessary?

Always looking for trouble,

Norm Abrahamson

[Bill Glasheen]

So if we have "established" that the core beliefs in God and Jesus as His Son are what is most important, to what extent are participation in the communal rites you described necessary?

That depends on whom you ask.

The Catholic Church is nothing if not concrete and crystal clear. 'These are the rules (precepts). Abide by them and you are in good graces; ignore them and you are not.'

There is obvious logic behind the rules, Norm. The lines are drawn because if they weren't, then people would do what they want. Everyone can rationalize themselves as being the exception to the rule, and that rationalization can be a very slippery slope for many.

I am one of those "ex Catholics" who does what he believes to be right. I don't pretend to call myself a Catholic, and I respect The Church for their rules and their doctrine. In fact...admitting you are "a sinner" is one of the key ingredients of being a Christian, whether or not you do the right thing. Christ showed that by accepting and forgiving a whore, and not giving a rat's ass about what others thought.

To each his/her own.

- Bill

[ljr]

Louis:

Of course your reply makes perfect sense. Compliance with rites and traditions without an unerlying belief is empty. So if we have "established" that the core beliefs in God and Jesus as His Son are what is most important, to what extent are participation in the communal rites you described necessary?

Always looking for trouble,

Norm Abrahamson

what if you did not practice sanchin because you felt that seisan and sanseiryu were the "core" of Uechi, and sanchin was not necessary... would you still be concidered a good Uechi Karate-ka? You may still be a good karate-ka, but not a good Uechi Karate-ka.

While the beliefs are core, you have to abide by all the rules to be a good Catholic.... (or so the church says) If you abide bye the core beliefs but do not folow the precepts than you are probably a good Christian, but not a good Catholic.

Cheers,
Louis

[Norm Abrahamson]

Louis:

Thanks for responding, I'm enjoying this thread!

Louis said: "what if you did not practice sanchin because you felt that seisan and sanseiryu were the "core" of Uechi, and sanchin was not necessary... would you still be concidered a good Uechi Karate-ka? You may still be a good karate-ka, but not a good Uechi Karate-ka."

I love Uechi Ryu, and I'm probably a better Uechi Ka than I ever was a Jew. Nevertheless, I don't consider martial arts study a religion. (Perhaps for some folks it is.)

Your point is well taken though. The rules are the rules, but it's the exceptions that define the rules. For example, a bedridden elderly man would not be expected to go to Mass. A teenager with an unsightly pimple likely would be expected to go. Where in the middle is the line drawn? Rigid rules look great on paper. They work perfectly until you add human beings to the equation. If religion is supposed to provide a model for moral and spiritual behavior, then the human factor cannot be ignored.

Sincerely,

Norm Abrahamson[/quote]

[mikemurphy]

As an ex-Catholic myself, AND having the privilege of going through Catholic school, I have experienced very few "strong" Catholics. I think when you look at what the high and mighty Vatican dictates from its throne of gold is obviously different than what is expected in different parts of its empire. For example, American Catholicism is very different than what you see in Italy, Spain, or France, just as it is different in Latin American countries.

Basically, it's what the Catholic has and always will be about.... hypocracy!

Like Norm, I'm a much better Uechi-ka than I ever will be a Catholic, or a Jew. I'm a pretty good agnostic though.

Hey Bill Sensei, want to really screw up Iraq? Have the Vatican invade it and occupy it with a few nasty nuns!

mike

[Panther]

Hmmmm...

In the middle-ground between the bedridden elderly and a pimpled teenager... The Catholic church, as much as I might disagree with some things, has covered this area pretty darn well and taken into account "the human factor" pretty well. If you have an illness or reason that means you're unable to go, the church has people who will bring the sacraments, including the Eucharist, to you. If you just don't want to go because of the small volcano on your nose... not an excuse for ignoring your Catholic duties. (In many Protestant churches, especially in the South, the rules are pretty close to that as well. Except they would say that it isn't an excuse for not giving proper praise to the Lord.) Regardless, there are exceptions and even the Catholic church realizes that... You try to go to Mass, but on the way your car breaks down and it was the last Mass of the week... Oops. Even still, plan on attending the early Sunday Mass every week and even if the car breaks down you can make it to the late Sunday Mass every week. Also, the Priests that I've talked with are pretty accomodating if you truly have an emergency situation like that and are truly devout and practicing the faith. They will see you at the Rectory or your own home or wherever and administer the sacraments.

What really messes them up is when you know & understand a number of different religions and beliefs.

[IJ]

If leading islamic authorities claim that terrorism is not consistant with God's Law, and some self-professed islamofascist blows someone up, is he or she not Islamic?

[Bill Glasheen]

I suppose you're trying to make a point, Ian.

The difference here is that there is one Catholic Church with one authority. And the rules of that church are cut-and-dry, and in writing. There is little left to the imagination.

As for Islam, well that's a bit like calling someone a Prodestant. It's a broader category of religions. I know of three major sects right off the top of my head.

Hating and killing in the name of misguided beliefs regrettably is not a novel concept.

- Bill

[Norm Abrahamson]

Bill said: "The difference here is that there is one Catholic Church with one authority. And the rules of that church are cut-and-dry, and in writing. There is little left to the imagination."

I guess this brings us in a full circle back to the beginning of the thread. It seems that the rules are not so cut and dried. As Panther noted in response to a comment about taking into account the "human factor" in religious rules, "The Catholic church, as much as I might disagree with some things, has covered this area pretty darn well and taken into account "the human factor" pretty well."

I don't think that religion is ever entirely rigid and static, or it would wither and die. Think of the Shakers, a religious sect that believed in celibacy for everyone. It strived for a short time, and then predictably died out.

During WWII some Jews in the concentration camps wanted to fast on Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement, in accordance with Jewish law and tradition. Rabbis in the camps discussed the matter and decided that it would be improper for starving men to fast, because to do so would probably lead to their deaths. Killing oneself by fasting would be a greater wrong than failing to fast.

There can be no one model for what makes a "Good Catholic" any more than there can be only one model for a good Jew, Unitarian, Moslem, Atheist or Karateka.

Sincerely,

Norm Abrahamson

[gmattson]

I get asked "what religion do you belong to" a lot. I always say, "I try to be a religious person, but don't subscribe to any religion."

Come to think about it. . . Lots of "fighters" out there who probably subscribe to that statement when asked about their martial art affiliations.