Virtue in Karate

benzocaine · Post by **benzocaine** » Fri Aug 12, 2005 11:52 am

On another thread the statement "Karate without virtue is only violence".

I certainly am not putting that statement down. In fact I have a high opinion of the person what stated that.

I think that virtue should be learned and trained.. it's just that virtue is such a subjective thing. There are many definitions of virtue. To one patients is a virtue.. to another seizing an oppoutunity without hesitation is a virtue. One person feels blowing themselves and a bus full of people is a wonderful virtue.. another feels doing no harm is virtue.

I read a quote somewhere that states "Budo is Truth". That is profound in my book. Truth in training, truth in dealing with others, and truth with onesself.

Could this be the virtue that we should train for?

IJ · Post by IJ » Fri Aug 12, 2005 2:04 pm

I dunno, aren't there straightforward and honest Yakuza?

MikeK · Post by **MikeK** » Fri Aug 12, 2005 2:09 pm

I have a hard time taking all advice on virtue from the people that gave us the Rape of Nanking, Korean comfort women and Unit 731. IMO we have to be careful whose martial virtues we choose.

Sochin · Post by **Sochin** » Fri Aug 12, 2005 3:45 pm

I was discussing a dojo peer with his buddy, another bb in the club because he had been arrested for dealing cocaine.

His buddy told me that he may have broken the law but at least he never let his family go hungry and always worked hard for his family.

Good solid virtues...

Good solid crap, I say.

TheGreatWhiteBuffalo · Fri Aug 12, 2005 3:53 pm

violence is violence, whether you use karate or not.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Aug 12, 2005 10:53 pm

MikeK wrote:I have a hard time taking all advice on virtue from the people that gave us the Rape of Nanking, Korean comfort women and Unit 731. IMO we have to be careful whose martial virtues we choose.

You ever been to Hawaii? The Japanese are the most racist people in the world and it really shows in Hawaii. Don't be fooled by their "smile and nod" tactics, they have more contempt for Americans then anyone. We did, after all, kick the living hell out of them in WWII and they deserved it.

MikeK · Post by **MikeK** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 2:59 am

Sadly racism knows no color. My family was hit with the old "Irish Need Not Apply". People can be stupid anywhere.

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 3:22 am

Mike I have to agree with your statement .

Maybe it`s our shotokan background showing , and the characters involved in the peacefull art .

Originally posted by MikeK I have a hard time taking all advice on virtue from the people that gave us the Rape of Nanking, Korean comfort women and Unit 731. IMO we have to be careful whose martial virtues we choose.

I do remember a quote along the lines of karate being a tool to subjugate the masses , I`ll try find the source .

I like the statement Budo is truth , I think addressing violence is in it`s very nature an undeniable truth , you can or you cant protect yourself .

no where to hide , the realisation of proper martial testing .

hard to be a phoney when you put it on the line .

talk about spiritual enlightenment , sef reliance , truth , direction .

but it`s just violence to many .

As the dog brothers say

Higher conciousness through harder contact .

Just violence , I dont think so .

Rick Wilson · Post by **Rick Wilson** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 3:32 am

I would have rather than this discussion got to the heart of how one teaches or trains virtue in martial arts rather than a discussion of the virtues of a race. But that is just me.

In the history of all races there are things we prefer had never happened and are an embarrassment.

When you train your martial art, what in that training leads you to improve as a person?

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 3:38 am

I beleive the impovement of oneself is obtained by confronting oneself .

Karate is a tool to confront oneself , the object of karate being a study of violence .

maybe I beleive a martial path without confrontation is spiritually worthless .

As for saying i`ve improved as a person , well that`s too presumptious of anyone I`d think . Who gets the right to judge this stuff ?

I`ll leave that to forces greater than man .

MikeK · Post by **MikeK** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 4:17 am

When you train your martial art, what in that training leads you to improve as a person?

Good question Rick! I'm going to use the point Marcus made as my jumping off point.

One of my favorite movies is The Iron Giant. At one point the main character, Hogarth Hughes, tells the Giant "You are what you choose to be". That's the way I see things, I choose to be what I am.

I think one thing that studying a martial art that isn't watered down does is present us with responsibility. I believe that Shotokan is the art of breaking things, like jaws, elbows, knees, necks, ribs, noses, etc. Since I believe that, I am now faced with the responsibilty that someones well being may be in my hands. I can choose to accept that responsibilty or reject it. I really believe that a man is defined by the choices he makes, not some enlightenment that suddenly comes to him while doing 1,000 air punches.

So in the end I don't believe that studying a martial art makes you a better person but it can be a tool to help get you there. I know of several excellent martial artists who were all around bad guys and all martial arts did was help them become better thugs. Oddly some of these guys are now revered as good guys.

Marcus, I often wonder about what some of our Shotokan luminaries did during WWII. I know some had nothing to do with the war but some others leave me with an uneasy feeling.

Tony, The few Japanese people that I've met have been nice enough to me. What they hold in their hearts I can't say.

benzocaine · Post by **benzocaine** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 10:57 am

I'm glad that I started this thread. I've learned so much from it already

I've enjoyed all the points made so far. Thanks guys.

Rick turned the discussion in a good direction when he asked

When you train your martial art, what in that training leads you to improve as a person?

In Aikido the philosophy is that you become a better person through training the techniques. The belief is that the many control moves and throws can easilly go bad and injure the person you work with.. conversely you can be injured as well. Same goes for Ueichi Ryu when you are doing partner work.

Will that makeme improve as a person? Debateable but it will at least teach cooperation.

I think that as far as improvement as a person goes, Martial arts (or age

) has taught me to control my emotons. Yes I flare up from time to time.. but those times are fewer and further apart. I think that the process of pushing yourself through discomfort makes your will stronger, and it teaches you to look beyond what you are feeling to the goal you want.

TheGreatWhiteBuffalo · Sat Aug 13, 2005 11:58 am

I really believe that a man is defined by the choices he makes, not some enlightenment that suddenly comes to him while doing 1,000 air punches.

good quote I agree. I think its hard to teach morality and virtue. I mean the church has been trying to that for hundreds of years, but the world is still full of immorality. The best way to pass virtue on in karate is to teach your students the consequences of their actions, and then its up to each one of us to make our own choices.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 12:20 pm

Well said Bine!

TheGreatWhiteBuffalo · Sat Aug 13, 2005 1:15 pm

HEY TONY MAYBE YOU AND BINE WOULD LIKE TO EAT AT THE CH..K RESTURANT NEXT DOOR!