More Shotokan stuff by Rob Redmond. I thought this was was an interesting look at a karate icon and some general karate history that goes against the some of the legends and "common knowledge" history of karate. The comments are worth reading also.
Deconstructing Funakoshi
Deconstructing Funakoshi
Moderator: Available
Deconstructing Funakoshi
I was dreaming of the past...
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Stryke
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Stryke
The reason Ohshima gave for the removal of the throws was many of the karate guys had plenty of exposure if not down right skills with judo, so for them it was redundant. He (Ohshima) is also for teaching the throws again as judo isn't as popular here as it was in Japan at the time. So no real mystery to that one.
Run of the mill Shotokan is what it is.
Run of the mill Shotokan is what it is.
I was dreaming of the past...
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Stryke
Yeah Mike ive heard all the excuses before 
, we didnt chop karate into sport sized bites , we just stopped teaching it because other sports covered it , no pressure form the Dai Nippon Butokukia there .
pity these japanese karate/judo guys cant teach these moves now though huh
what about all the limb twisting and drawing you always see Gichin doing ?
I actually heard a funny story about not being able to manipulate your opponents balance because it would be considered rude !!!
way to learn huh ?
theres a lot of merit in the okinawa sport argument , maybe thats my I do china hand instead of empty hand these days ....
wonder what version Kanbun learnt ....
, we didnt chop karate into sport sized bites , we just stopped teaching it because other sports covered it , no pressure form the Dai Nippon Butokukia there .pity these japanese karate/judo guys cant teach these moves now though huh
what about all the limb twisting and drawing you always see Gichin doing ?
I actually heard a funny story about not being able to manipulate your opponents balance because it would be considered rude !!!
way to learn huh ?
theres a lot of merit in the okinawa sport argument , maybe thats my I do china hand instead of empty hand these days ....
wonder what version Kanbun learnt ....
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JimHawkins
- Posts: 2101
- Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 12:21 am
- Location: NYC
I agree with Marcus.
1. He wasn't kidding when he said "stuff" was left out.
2. IMO it's more about training methodologies and concepts missing.
3. If GF indeed left out things he wasn't the first to do it.
IMO ALL ARTS ARE MISSING STUFF! I've seen this process of omission myself and have more knowledge of its general practice. This goes for some arts waaaaaay more than others and some twisted more than others.
Funny thing though.. What I see happening now, via the great global information exchange that is all media - is a sort of re-unification of all arts - sort of a genesis of all MA being reborn - or dying off as a combative art - take your pick..
1. He wasn't kidding when he said "stuff" was left out.
2. IMO it's more about training methodologies and concepts missing.
3. If GF indeed left out things he wasn't the first to do it.
IMO ALL ARTS ARE MISSING STUFF! I've seen this process of omission myself and have more knowledge of its general practice. This goes for some arts waaaaaay more than others and some twisted more than others.
Funny thing though.. What I see happening now, via the great global information exchange that is all media - is a sort of re-unification of all arts - sort of a genesis of all MA being reborn - or dying off as a combative art - take your pick..
Shaolin
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
It happens when people stop looking only to their instructor for information, and start investigating the art on their own - as they should. It happens when people go back to Funakoshi's sources, and learn many of the original forms from the styles they came from. It happens when people read The Bubishi, or study HAPV. It happens when we know a good technique when we steal it. (With apologies to Milton Berle - a man who appreciated the phenomenon.Mike wrote:
The odd thing is if GF left stuff out then how was some of it passed on to some of his students?
)We shouldn't be wringing our hand so much about it all. Instead, we should be enjoying the journey and getting on with the information exchange - as they once did. Only now we have more at our disposal. No excuses!
- Bill
I know how it was passed on Bill. The Shotokan specific stuff was shown to me by a guy who learned it from Ohshima who learned it from his instructor. So I believe that there has always been a transmittal of information within Shotokan from instructor to student. Same as with Uechi and any other art. You might not find it in the run of the mill dojo but the information is still out there somewhere.
You are right about looking at the original forms. On another forum I came across a discussion on Heian Nidan and was hit by something Elmar Schmeisser said about the nukite in the kata being the hand form that is in vogue at this time which is a spear hand to the solar plexus. By canting the hand a little and changing the target I got another easier and more effective technique. The current version could be a case of a metaphor gone wrong where it's mistaken for a technique or hiding/misdirecting the dangerous technique in one that needs a lot of training to make work.
On with the exchange!
You are right about looking at the original forms. On another forum I came across a discussion on Heian Nidan and was hit by something Elmar Schmeisser said about the nukite in the kata being the hand form that is in vogue at this time which is a spear hand to the solar plexus. By canting the hand a little and changing the target I got another easier and more effective technique. The current version could be a case of a metaphor gone wrong where it's mistaken for a technique or hiding/misdirecting the dangerous technique in one that needs a lot of training to make work.
On with the exchange!
I was dreaming of the past...
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
For what it's worth...
My very first martial arts instructor, Hiroshi Hamada, was a product of "the Japanese Karate movement" when I first studied with him. He allegedly studied with Funakoshi as a child, but also with other martial greats of the time. I started with him at W&M in early 1972, when Hamada was in his early thirties. Interestingly enough, the kata Hamada Sensei taught me back then were forms that for the most part he abandoned later on. Fortunately through the work of a talented cohort (Bill Stockey), we've been able to preserve some of these "interesting" forms. Some of the series were grammar school "junk" (the kunchaku series), and we don't even do those any more. But others... The Teisha series in particular are remarkable, and Bill and I both see fabulous self defense applications in them. Some old masters who look at them also find them interesting.
Meanwhile... At various stages Hamada Sensei went back to Japan and picked up other classic forms. For example... suddenly after having visited the school of Yamaguchi Gogen, the kata Seunchin appeared. More and more, classic Naha and Shurite kata made their way into the school.
Bill's one of those guys who's managed to remember all the stuff Hamada Sensei would throw at us. He's busily getting a lot of this stuff on DVD with his buddies. It's quite the mish-mash, but certainly offers a guided tour of the "chaos" that was and is Japanese Karate.
- Bill
P.S. Bill Stockey was a lineman on the W&M football team in the early 1970s, and got a degree in history. He also worked earlier as a bouncer, and so is a "certifiable bad dude." It's a nice mix of an aging athletic man with a steel trap mind.
My very first martial arts instructor, Hiroshi Hamada, was a product of "the Japanese Karate movement" when I first studied with him. He allegedly studied with Funakoshi as a child, but also with other martial greats of the time. I started with him at W&M in early 1972, when Hamada was in his early thirties. Interestingly enough, the kata Hamada Sensei taught me back then were forms that for the most part he abandoned later on. Fortunately through the work of a talented cohort (Bill Stockey), we've been able to preserve some of these "interesting" forms. Some of the series were grammar school "junk" (the kunchaku series), and we don't even do those any more. But others... The Teisha series in particular are remarkable, and Bill and I both see fabulous self defense applications in them. Some old masters who look at them also find them interesting.
Meanwhile... At various stages Hamada Sensei went back to Japan and picked up other classic forms. For example... suddenly after having visited the school of Yamaguchi Gogen, the kata Seunchin appeared. More and more, classic Naha and Shurite kata made their way into the school.
Bill's one of those guys who's managed to remember all the stuff Hamada Sensei would throw at us. He's busily getting a lot of this stuff on DVD with his buddies. It's quite the mish-mash, but certainly offers a guided tour of the "chaos" that was and is Japanese Karate.
- Bill
P.S. Bill Stockey was a lineman on the W&M football team in the early 1970s, and got a degree in history. He also worked earlier as a bouncer, and so is a "certifiable bad dude." It's a nice mix of an aging athletic man with a steel trap mind.
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Stryke
Lets face it , the moment you systemise you decide on your training focus .
the originals and the greats never got stuck in this material , they even changed it .
Funakoshi probably gets the blame because the systemisation was attributed to him (only partly IMHO I think others had a bigger effect)
most of the greats cross trained explored , and the styles where named after them by folks who couldnt or wouldnt change .
Funakoshi said all karate was the same , and didnt want the labels ....
style can be martial death if you get too literal .
train for 30 years and still have areas to explore , why ?
the originals and the greats never got stuck in this material , they even changed it .
Funakoshi probably gets the blame because the systemisation was attributed to him (only partly IMHO I think others had a bigger effect)
most of the greats cross trained explored , and the styles where named after them by folks who couldnt or wouldnt change .
Funakoshi said all karate was the same , and didnt want the labels ....
style can be martial death if you get too literal .
train for 30 years and still have areas to explore , why ?
Some ramblings...
I was thinking about the "lost" parts of Japanese karate, the locks and throws. I think sometimes the Japanese get looked at only through karate and we forget that they had a warrior culture that surpassed that of Okinawa and gave China fits. Classical Jujutsu covers most of the bases as far as combat goes: Locks (check), pressure points (check), breaks, chokes, strikes to lethal areas (check,check,check). Japanese weapons were state of the art for their time. Toss in a little conquering to the mix and from a martial arts stand point the Japanese were the top dog in the area.
So what did the Okinawans bring to the Japanese table as far something new? What part of karate did the young Japanese take to? How did the Japanese see Okinawan karate in relation to their own home grown combatives?
I think the majority of young Japanese who took up karate could give a rip about it as a combative art, but enjoyed it as a toughman sport. So the missing parts aren't really missing but dropped as something not really needed. Not to say the Okinawan techniques weren't passed on, but maybe just to those who really cared.
I was thinking about the "lost" parts of Japanese karate, the locks and throws. I think sometimes the Japanese get looked at only through karate and we forget that they had a warrior culture that surpassed that of Okinawa and gave China fits. Classical Jujutsu covers most of the bases as far as combat goes: Locks (check), pressure points (check), breaks, chokes, strikes to lethal areas (check,check,check). Japanese weapons were state of the art for their time. Toss in a little conquering to the mix and from a martial arts stand point the Japanese were the top dog in the area.
So what did the Okinawans bring to the Japanese table as far something new? What part of karate did the young Japanese take to? How did the Japanese see Okinawan karate in relation to their own home grown combatives?
I think the majority of young Japanese who took up karate could give a rip about it as a combative art, but enjoyed it as a toughman sport. So the missing parts aren't really missing but dropped as something not really needed. Not to say the Okinawan techniques weren't passed on, but maybe just to those who really cared.
I was dreaming of the past...
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Stryke
