Sensible training

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 10:34 am

I really like this little artlcle about training, makes good sense to me

http://www.aikidojournal.com:80/?id=4766

2Green · Post by **2Green** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 5:08 pm

I find this quote from the text particularly interesting:

" I’ve noticed that too much macho, try-hard behaviors such as contest, tend to curtail the learning process and fine tuning of technical skill. Too much hard training is an ego trip that repeatedly recoils with bad effects.

I think that fine motor coordination can be blended with the gross provided training is balanced with both soft and hard. The attitude of contest kills the ability to learn."
( quote from the article.)

~N~

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 8:13 pm

Any real athlete knows aboud periodisation , balance and rest in training .

If they dont its a short path to failure

But that doesnt mean you cant do hard training and improve , and more importantly that its not necessary if you want to reach your true potential .

just a conveniant excuse for those that dont want too , and/of havent got the knowledge too

every real athlete trains hard , in every pursuit , its pretty much self evident .

more tree hugging mumbo jumbo , clouded in half truths .

what he says about balance rest and intervals of halrd training are correct , but its put forward as an excuse and his numbers are abitrary .

strentgh counts , fitness counts , and they arent anethema to good skill , in fact there often necessary , often effortless can be an issue of correctly developed structure .

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 8:27 pm

Well this isn't really Athletic training is it

...Athletes retire..martial artists just get older.

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 8:29 pm

Well this isn't really Athletic training is it ...Athletes retire..martial artists just get older.

nonsense Ray , check this out , you should identify

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp ... 0#24098080

pursuing a physical pastime and not considering the physical important .... well each there own

Ive got friends in there sixtys and seventys still performing with athletic ablility , its a question of living well and healthier , not living only longer .

and heavy training should play about 25 % IMHO

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 10:05 pm

I think the most important thing - which is being alluded to by Marcus - is training smart.

You will not get an anabolic effect if you over-train OR you train without intensity. And the rest periods and periodization principles hold.

I'm with Marcus also on the athletic side of things. If it wasn't for the fact that I found religion with serious, regular training with weights, I would have needed to retire a long time ago. If only I had the instruction and knowledge then that I have now, I might not have accumulated some of those injuries I picked up in my earlier years. Good training both galvanizes the body and teaches you how to use it effectively. That translates to more productive, efficient practice and a reduction in injuries.

I don't buy the whole athlete OR martial artist thing. We're not talking oxymoron here. Either you know how to use your body or you don't.

It's also worth mentioning that fine motor coordination should be saved for the piano, the surgical suite, and the computer keyboard. Martial arts that translates to self-defense is all about avoiding techniques that depend heavily upon fine motor coordination.

- Bill

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 10:31 pm

Well I train with weights and I keep myself fit.always have and always will

.....so I'm not saying anything against that. I agree with a lot of what this guy says though, trouble with the martial art of karate or kung fu is you can't train to peak for a fight because you never know when a fight will occur...so you never know when you peak ...........also what are you training for?.a streetfight is not a boxing match it'll be over in about 30 seconds.so your training should reflect that.
Quote
It's also worth mentioning that fine motor coordination should be saved for the piano, the surgical suite, and the computer keyboard. Martial arts that translates to self-defense is all about avoiding techniques that depend heavily upon fine motor coordination.

Then it's really not worth doing martial arts then is it?....why spend hours learning kata and techniques when you can just hit a bag

and some folks do this
http://www.urbancombatives.com/4th.htm

I plan on doing some myself real soon

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 10:35 pm

Then it's really not worth doing martial arts then is it?....why spend hours learning kata and techniques when you can just hit a bag

because martial arts should teach how to better hit that bag etc

, or more importantly hit a person .... Or throw them choke them slam them , etc etc

its the fluff that is ridiculous , and the fluff that doesnt work .

but your the boxing trumps all guy , you know this .

traditional MA done realistically should be a lot more like combatives IMHO

In fact there was nothing on the page you linked that we dont down here regularly train , and I reference all that to uechi base .... go figure

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 10:46 pm

also what are you training for?.

Strength , structural integrity alignment , range of motion , explosiveness , cardio-breath control , co-ordination

all developed through physical training , and all conducive to overall well being , and fighting ability .

fighting is without a doubt the most challenging and physically demanding activity , requiring attributes across the spectrum of physical performance .

you may not need it , but it never hurts , and if your talking about lifestyle and longevity , this will do you far better than some fancy wrist lock

heck most of the arts had there own strentghening methods , its not totally from out of left feild this one .

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 1:03 am

Bill

It's also worth mentioning that fine motor coordination should be saved for the piano, the surgical suite, and the computer keyboard. Martial arts that translates to self-defense is all about avoiding techniques that depend heavily upon fine motor coordination.

This has always been the theme of most of the reality discussions, and the focus of lethal force trainers even as long term practice helps in ‘fining it’ _

It might help to define “fine motor coordination” in the context of training. I.E., we could talk about the Uechi system and whether or not there is such a thing or not in our moves.

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 1:10 am

I dont see there being any problem training training minute and fine motor co-ordination , but only if it is built on gross motor co-ordination so if it fails it will still have plenty of go .

the physical component to training to me is not in worship of technique but in educating the body in how to move naturally and co-ordinated , so that the gross motor is uninhibited and functional , something easily and rapidly addressed in avenues such as compound strength training , and if approached the correct way kata .

coordination , structure and mechanics .

MikeK · Post by **MikeK** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 1:13 am

Stryke wrote: you may not need it , but it never hurts , and if your talking about lifestyle and longevity , this will do you far better than some fancy wrist lock

Watch it Marcus, I just spent last weekend teaching those fancy wrist locks and will be doing so again this weekend.

One problem with the original article is that he never defines what harsh, moderate or light training is.

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 2:09 am

Watch it Marcus, I just spent last weekend teaching those fancy wrist locks and will be doing so again this weekend.

I do them and teach them Mike , just they have little to do with health and longevity , unless by some freak of nature your wristlock defeats your particular assailant/mass murderer

One problem with the original article is that he never defines what harsh, moderate or light training is.

definately Mike , the problem with the article is obvious , first he references a study which he lost , he then fails to define intensity , and then holds this up as a conclusion his softly softly approach is best .

Its got enough elements of truth to it to be passable , and everyone wanting to be spiritual and mung bean and effective instantly assumes there on the right path (easy to convinve folks of what they want to hear)

If he was a true expert in training intensity , he wouldnt be outlying what doesnt work in a vague sense , he would be outlying what does work in a very specific and studied methodology , taking into account

intensity
frequency
rest
nutrition
variation
adaptation

etc etc etc

but no just really a do gentle martial arts , shake your heads at those that pursue them vigourously , and listen to me becasue Im a mucky muck .

no science or information really whatsoever

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 3:44 am

This concept is best expressed in what is referred to as the "Inverted Y Law." It states that as heart rate (stress) increases, the officer’s ability to use fine and/or complex motor skills deteriorates.

Conversely, as heart rate increases, the officer’s ability to use gross motor skills actually increases. A gross motor skill uses major muscle groups in actions of pushing, pulling, or strength events.

A fine motor skill uses small muscle groups and requires accuracy and/or coordination skills. A complex motor skill combines movements from both gross and fine motor skills.

VAN

I accidentally hit "edit" rather than "quote" and messed the rest of this post up. If you can remember what you quoted, please repair.

Sorry...

Bill

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 3:53 am

While it is stupid to assert a universal negative (fine-motor skills are useless in a real assault) there is much research to indicate that gross-motor movements should be favoured. For those with a MA/DT background the closest place to spot it would probably be with Bruce Siddle's PPCT, or Darren Laur, the ex-cop out of Victoria.

Both cites plenty of basic research on stress psychophysiology.

To me the most important thing is to remember that your cerebral cortex practically doesn't even govern your behaviour during a really huge adrenaline dump.

The reticular activating system "unhooks" it and plugs in the limbic system. If the situation is truly a "H**Y S#!T!" moment, gross motor movements are the best thing to go with.

Sensible training

Sensible training

This by Siddle's research