Does science make belief in God obsolete?

[chef]

In the past I have noticed that some of the most intelligent people I have met often are either agnostic or atheists, be it scientist, mathematician, doctor, etc.. This topic came up this morning on NPR and aroused a lot of conflicting thoughts on this subject.

Does science make belief in God obsolete?

What are you thoughts on this?

Regards,
Vicki

[Valkenar]

I think it depends on the individual and the reason for belief. I think for many people religion provides a reassurance that life is meaningful and important, which is something science cannot do. Science can't answer "What is life for" "why am I here" or "Why did this happen" and other such existential questions in a way that is emotionally satisfying. Those kinds of questions are the exclusive domain of philosophy, spirituality and faith. Science can only explain the mechanical side of "why", not the metaphysical. For those who find the idea of a universe that is truly random unsettling, religion can provide a foundation (or a framework) for the belief that there is a reason for everything.

The only area in which science really has made religion obsolete is in the realm of explaining natural phenomena. Very few people in modern cultures use religion to explain the mechanics of lightning, eclipses, earthquakes and the like. Still, while science may say "lightning is the release of electrical charge built up in the clouds" others would say that "lightning hit this specific location because God willed it for a greater purpose."

Personally, I think religion can help people when they need it and that's a good thing. There's nothing wrong with taking solace in faith during tough times. And again, science can't (and isn't meant to) provide that kind of support for people.

[Shana Moore]

I believe faith, whatever form it takes, is very important to a well rounded and stable individual. It's like art in that sense. It expresses the currently indefinable aspects of ourselves and our worlds. To some, it is a great mystery to be explored, and to some it is a protective force that watches over them.

You might find this page interesting:
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... faith.html

It lists several famous scientist who did believe in God, to some degree. I like the quote by Einstein, "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Now, I don't think this means a specific religion, as much as faith in a higher creative force. It speaks to the central question of "why" in so many ways.

Not sure if that helps or just confuses the issue....

[Bill Glasheen]

That's a great post, Justin.

I do have qualms with one part.

For those who find the idea of a universe that is truly random unsettling, religion can provide a foundation (or a framework) for the belief that there is a reason for everything.

The more I live life and observe nature, the more I see that "life happens." There is a reason for some things happening, such as the cycle of life and the existence of extremes (as per Ecclesiastics). But life has pockets of random and unpredictable behavior.

Even in biology, people want to over-interpret why species have certain characteristics or behave certain ways. Well... maybe it's backwards. Maybe differences and some degree of for-no-particular-reason randomness just are, and serendipitously allow groups to survive changes where new paradigms become the way to go.

Rather than find a reason for things, I think "whatever" (religion, spirituality, social networks) are better at helping us deal with the unfortunate realities. They help inspire us to get up in the morning, move forward, be our best, and do our best.

I know to some extent this is very personal, and different personalities will approach life in different ways. But that's a perspective I find myself working comfortably with. It keeps me from dwelling about a past or a future I can't change or don't care for, and instead opens my eyes to the possibilities.

- Bill

[chef]

Faith...a hard to define word. Biblically, faith is defined as the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

I and people I trust and know have witnessed very strange faith (God) things in the past that simply cannot be justified or explained and, seemingly, make no sense but were seen by human eyes. Amazing things that, defy science.

Interesting to hear other's thoughts on this subject.

Regards,
Vicki

[Valkenar]

The more I live life and observe nature, the more I see that "life happens." There is a reason for some things happening, such as the cycle of life and the existence of extremes (as per Ecclesiastics). But life has pockets of random and unpredictable behavior.

Sure, that's fine. I suppose I should have written "may" rather than "can." What I meant is basically "has the ability to." I.e. Religion can serve explanatory purposes if you want it to, or it can serve to make you comfortable with the inexplicable. Or it can serve some other purpose in your life entirely. Spirituality is much too broad a term to define by any one purpose.

I see spirituality as a tool people use for a wide variety of purposes. Some are good, some bad, but the range is huge. Personally, I don't really have anything you could call a spiritual belief (except perhaps an a priori belief in the inherent value of human life and happiness), but I'm perfectly comfortable with the nature of existence as I see it.

[chef]

Definitions of spirituality on the Web:

Having to do with deep, often religious, feelings and beliefs, including a person’s sense of peace, purpose, connection to others and beliefs ...
http://www.mdanderson.org/patients_publ ... isplay.cfm

Buddhism,;Cross-denominational terms; Eastern Orthodoxy; Evangelical; Hinduism; Islam; Jehovah's Witness; Judaism; Kwanzaa; LDS (Mormon); Lutheranism; Miscellaneous terms; Native American spirituality; Religions and denominations; Roman Catholicism and Episcopalianism; Wicca; Worldwide Church of ...
www.theinterpretersfriend.com/tech/vocab/a.html

This is generally understood to refer to the path of awareness. Unfortunately, however, this term usually refers to a realm which is outside. For example, “spiritual” has been divided from “physical.” Yet in authentic awareness, there can be no such division.Back to Top
www.ishvara.org/Pages/glossary.html

A specific way of living some particular aspect of the Gospel.
www.holyfamilybordeaux.org/glossary.html

a sense of meaning and purpose, a sense of self and of relationship with 'that which is greater than self', and also practices such as meditation and 'bonding rituals' which support such identity and relationship; expressed in organisations in issues such as 'belonging' (identification with) and ...
www.tetradian.com/glossary

An inner sense of something greater than oneself. Recognition of a meaning to existence that transcends one's immediate circumstances.
http://www.nature.com/nri/journal/v4/n1 ... ssary.html

spiritualty: property or income owned by a church
concern with things of the spirit
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Spirituality, in a narrow sense, concerns itself with matters of the spirit. The spiritual, involving (as it may) perceived eternal verities regarding humankind's ultimate nature, often contrasts with the temporal, with the material, or with the worldly. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirituality

This can be rather vague...definitely of a most personal context.

Vicki

[Gene DeMambro]

My study of science makes me appreciate, even more, God's creation. I stand in wonder, the more I learn about the natural universe, how it all works. Far from being a creationist, I believe in the laws of the physical world and the natural sciences.

This, coming from an ardent Catholic, in the best Jesuit tradition!

Cheers,
Gene

[TSDguy]

The list of scientists who believed in god is kind of... off.

Anywho, I believe religion and believing in a god HAS been made obsolete by science, but I don't think religion is going to leave permanently for at least fifty or a hundred years. The trend has started with a relatively massive surge in atheism by the youth. Eventually, god-based religions will go away and I suspect it will gradually be replaced some sort of 'paradigm of good behavior and meaning'. I think Star Trek got it right; people will find meaning in life by helping humanity progress, helping others, and improving oneself. In other words, pleasing themselves and humanity rather than pleasing the then defunct gods.

[Gene DeMambro]

Vatican: It's OK to believe in aliens

May 13, 2008

VATICAN CITY—The Vatican's chief astronomer says that believing in aliens does not contradict faith in God.

The Rev. Jose Gabriel Funes, the Jesuit director of the Vatican Observatory, says that the vastness of the universe means it is possible there could be other forms of life outside Earth, even intelligent ones.

In an interview published Tuesday by Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano, Funes says that such a notion "doesn't contradict our faith" because aliens would still be God's creatures.

The interview was headlined "The extraterrestrial is my brother." Funes said that ruling out the existence of aliens would be like "putting limits" on God's creative freedom.

© Copyright 2008 Associated Press.

[hoshin]

i dont think its a matter of replacing. for now the two are opposing like creation vs evolution. but eventually the two ( i belive) will merge again into one. where God the universal mind what ever you want to call it had the "will" to do and science will explain the details of how. god made us come to life but science will explain how.

steve

[IJ]

A lot of people can't find the "why" in the science of evolution and the big bang, and this is frequently an argument for religion. I don't get that. You can derive a purpose without having to appeal to something unseen and unestablished. What about watching the effect of charitable works on the less fortunate and rejoicing in the betterment of your fellow man and yourself? What about the golden rule and empathy? What about a sense of awe for the miracle of life in general and our planet and the array of climates, natural phenomena from volcanos or thunderstorms to a kitten's heartbeat in your hand to bacteria that can live off sulfur in a volcanic undersea vent or a penguin that can raise a chick in the antarctic or a fish that can return to its place of birth by smell? Places like hawaii and yosemite and footage from films like Planet Earth are my church and fill me with a deep sense of gratitude--no supernatural components required.

As for the idea that religion will stick with us another "50-100" years... um... there are plenty of impoverished cultures who are concerned with the next meal, not a laptop, and won't hear about real science in that time. Nothing will change for them. And there are those determined not to move out of the stone age who will embrace modern technology only so they can push their view of a fundamentalist world (enforced beards and 5x daily prayer, women getting switched for showing their ankles) on the rest of us. They're not going to change their minds, and their grandchildren's mindsets have largely been decided. Trust me... just wait for 2058. There is also a huge component of modern, western, mainstream culture that is irrevocably interwoven with religion--I know plenty of people who keep up with Catholic and Jewish ceremony because it's their culture, not because they're convinced of all of the tenets. And we won't see evolutionists performing marriages anytime soon--that role will be largely filled by religious figures for a long, long time.

[cxt]

chef

IMO, the two are not mutually exclusive.

I think they answer different questions and apply to different needs....so to speak.

I seriously don't think "belief" or the lack-there-of is a good measure of "intelligence."..I grew up with a few people whom hold that position--that either their disbelief or their religious convictions somehow places them in special catagory...one where they occupy a postion just a little bit higher than the the rest of us.....a postion that I find highly questionable....and since I know them personally---often demonstratably so.

Besides, its hard to know exactly what a persons real postion might be--people say all kinds of things--look how many people call themselves "vegetarian" but still eat a "little chicken or fish."
They have to parse the word to fit all kinds of people...all kinds of defiantions of being vegetarian.

Even with a pretty strict reading--even atheism offers quite a bit of "wiggle" room...as does religious belief.

I think you can have both.

[TSDguy]

There is also a huge component of modern, western, mainstream culture that is irrevocably interwoven with religion--I know plenty of people who keep up with Catholic and Jewish ceremony because it's their culture, not because they're convinced of all of the tenets.

This is pretty much my point. I don't know ANYone my age that actually believes in a god, and I'm fairly social and upfront about talking to people about these things. Sure they could be lying, but for the most part (as confirmed by MSM stats) people are culturally "religious". As in a Jew that doesn't believe in god. Know plenty of those, and they tell me it's the norm in Israel, although I'm not sure I believe them.

And we won't see evolutionists performing marriages anytime soon--that role will be largely filled by religious figures for a long, long time.

Do you miss Boston? That happens all the time here. "Justice of the Peace" if you can't find anyone else. I don't want religion interfering with things that are important to me.

[Valkenar]

A lot of people can't find the "why" in the science of evolution and the big bang, and this is frequently an argument for religion. I don't get that. You can derive a purpose without having to appeal to something unseen and unestablished.

I can and you can, but I'm not sure everyone can (This isn't a superiority thing. I can't be satisfied by mysticism the way they can.) A great many people seem to really need to believe in supernatural forces. That's too bad, but there's lots of things about the human psyche I wish were different. Theistic religion seems especially absurd from an intellectual point of view, but I've come to recognize that some people just can't handle a universe that lacks a cosmic authority figure. To me, that's more than a little sad, but to them my inability to be satisfied by mysticism is similarly tragic.

To draw a shaky medical analogy, it's healthiest if people metabolize sugar by themselves, but I'm not going to frown on them for needing insulin shots. While I personally think that it's better if people enjoy the world for what it is, I'm not going to begrudge people some fantasy if that's what they need to get by. Ultimately whether religion is good or bad is a function of what results it creates. I think it does tend to draw people away from thinking rationally about various issues, but certainly there are many people who manage to juggle both a spiritual view of the universe and rational decision-making.

On a personal note, two of my friends were married by a third friend who was justice of the peace for a day. I plan to be married (in August '09) by another friend whose primary qualification is that he's an engaging and interesting speaker (professional storyteller), but also happens to be well-versed in various forms of spirituality. There's nothing wrong with a little symbolism to emphasize a meaningful event (even if it's rooted in some sort of nonsense view of the universe) but generally we feel similarly to TSDguy in that we don't want religion involved.