capoeira is not a joke

[chalkdust]

Lets discuss capoeira and the mysterious and fascinating world of african martial arts!

I never saw myself as one to seriously pursue this art, but upon doing it for roughly 8 months I am starting to see that it has some real power. I hope that my maestre and I can continue to train and intelligently push the understanding of capoeira forward so that it can compete as the african brazillian picture of a traditional and beautiful martial art!

I will briefly discuss imo/ the benefits to training capoeira in a method that should appeal to traditional martial artists.

Capoeira trains a supple, flexible and strong body as well as a fit circulatory system and it trains the practitioner to have an advanced understanding of what that body can do. The practitioner gains an understanding of joints and how they work efficiently and how they can be strengthened and how they can be used so that they are kept in good health. The degree of balance and coordination and the understanding of weight dynamics and a center of gravity is strong in capoeira. Much time is spent training the arms to operate as legs. Not only does this take pressure off of usually stressed regions of the body(I dont know if this has any benefit but it sounds cool), but it offers a high level of upper and core conditioning flexibility, and again, control!

The capoeirista is able to spring and leap and run and dodge fluidly and gently but when power is needed, he is able to gaIN POWER THROUGH PROPER STANCE AND WEIGHT CONTROL/MUSCLE AND BONE CONNECTION (SOUND FAMILIAR) MY CAVEAT IS THAT i AM NOT SURE IF THERE IS A PROTOCOL IN CAPOEIRA THAT EXPLAINS these body dynamics in such a clear and precise way as ("real") "karate" and "kung fu!" but I have seen that people that "Get" capoeira understand the importance of relaxation, power, control, dynamic movements and proper energy in each part of the body. I am defending capoeira but I am betting now that the understanding of these principles is higher.

Capoeira comes from Africa and is inseparable from african culture. Much like zen and the asian martial arts. African philosophy music and spirituality and dance are connected with each other and connected to capoeira. The aspects of african dance (african dance already was a fitness routine and training method for war, stability, sport or utilitarian jobs, for many afircan people as well as a meditative spiritual event and artistic or theatrical practice) found in capoiera hone a level in the mind, and an ability to let the body move in certain ways to the droning pulse of the angolan birin bau and the yoruban and angolan and kongo melodies and subjects covered in the lexicon of call and response capoeira chants and songs. The musical training and advanced mental discipline gained form learning to play the unique birinbau and understand its connection to the rest of the capoeira (samba) instruments and to connect that to the movements of the dance and training must without a doubt train some kind of mental discipline (intuition, body awareness, reflexes, ability to lock into a rhythmic groove.) that will trickle out into all areas of life which whioll likewise trickle into capoeira to strengthen character, fortitude and mental and spiritual power holistically. (in layman's terms, ability to succeed in life in all aspects including fight)


thats all for now

[chalkdust]

I believe that some schools including the one i train with do more contact drilling but probably not enough. I think the more advanced it gets the more contact there is and I have heard there is good grappling later on. right now I am simply not used to the whole thing enough.

[MikeK]

Hello chalkdust. Who are you? Please introduce yourself.

[f.Channell]

Interesting topic, I have watched some classes. But yes tell us more about your training and yourself.

f.

[chalkdust]

Well at the moment I am extremely privileged to be part of sensei Craig Bloch's Shotokan dojo, tallahassee, florida... he is under Takashina (one of his students... spelling may be off, i think BLoch traied with Nakayama) I have questions about Shotokan and I was going to start another thread. Ive been doing shotokan for one year.

I used to post here a few years back when I was doing uechi for about 8 months with a student of ROy Bedard. I didnt have a clue what Martial Arts was about then and Have a larger understanding now. I regret that I may never be able to continue uechi traiing but maybe one day I will, I would especially love to learn more about sanchin.

I have done about a year or 2 of wing chun in between the uechi and the shotokan and Capoeira that I take with Maestre Preguica (sloth) Akinlana Lowman of Grupo Bantu Beira MAr.

Wing chun was fascinating and I believe the JOINT STRENGTHENING and ROTATING exercises combined with the reflex and ground connection training was very very good and Im not sure if shotokan or uechi has an equivalent. Those wing chun guys understand their joints and have sternghtned them in ways so that dislocations are protected against and the joints are protected and connected and all kinds of other positive things... but I see the parallels in karate...
again it would be great to learn more wing chun

alas!

but I will stick with shotokan and capoeira for the time being!

I guess as a traditional martial artist supporter I cannot say I would not love to train whatever is called panther or leapord or dragosn style or long fist, mantis fist, nan quon chang quon or white crane. that all sounds really awesome and interesting. and academically I am down to do lots of research for sure.

I also remember from posting here a dude with long hair doing uechi katas and hissing and pouncing around like a tiger, and that has stuck with me!

[Bill Glasheen]

Sounds like good stuff, chalkdust. I do remember you, by the way.

I do hope you appreciate the Uechi lineage you have. Roy Bedard is one of a kind. He's now a law enforcement trainer and supplier, so qualifies as a true martial professional. He also has a good academic background from Florida State - hence your martial roots in Tallahassee.

Capoeira is quite the fascinating gymnastic martial art. The closest thing to it in Chinese arts is Wu Shu, where the most athletic moves are encouraged. The partner routines in capoeira - prearranged and freeform - are nothing short of phenomenal. It's a great art for a young person who wants or needs to develop overall athleticism. Not many older people have the bodies or gymnastic training to start it at an advanced age.

Many of the physical benefits you speak of can be gained from any decent martial art. Capoeira is somewhat in a league of its own in terms of athleticism for its own sake. But most martial arts suggest the supplemental training needed to develop the body. Sanchin for example should be done in conjunction with older traditional and/or more contemporary resistance training. Capoeira achieves a lot of this within the art via the hand stands and other athletic techniques.

Most modern warriors who stick it out are in it for the body/mind/spirit development as opposed to actually needing self-defense to survive or wanting to make a career in law enforcement or the military. This is a good reason to study an art like capoeira. Meanwhile, your shotokan will give you a more "no nonsense" foundation in fighting arts. Even though traditional, it isn't so far from its martial roots.

Keep posting, chalkdust. Tell us more about what you like in your training, and keep us up to date on your progress.

- Bill

[chalkdust]

I appreciate it immensely although I only met Mr Bedard on the phone.

I secretly have a gut feeling that uechi may be a little "better" or "deeper" than shotokan, (and people would have me believe that wing chun is even deeper still) and Im not sure why, and I know that there is awesome power in Shotokan training. I kind of viewed the uechi training as a little more hardcore, but I am in a class with two brown belts and a green belt and we are pushing each other a lot. My sensei knows i am intrigued by semi to full contact sparring, iron body conditioning etc.

What do you guys think?

I will stick with Shotokan of course as well as capoeira... I owe it to both these arts to represent them well and to the best of my ability.

Still I will probably be contacting Roy Bedard sooner or later when I am ready to think about continuing uechi training.

I consider uechi to be my basis. Although it wasnt until after wing chun when I started to get what training was all about.

By the way there is an article here that is a blueprint for life and the gist of the article was that we train for training sake.


IN GENERAL I know that I am not doing any serious grappling training. Well I know thats dangerous, I dont really want to fight professionally or at all, but I think it would be useful. So eventually I guess I have to learn some jiu jitsu.


How can Capoeira training be honed to be more effective for self defense?

IMO capoeira is getting a practitioner to be creative in how he views and understands the power of his body. It is also teaching a degree of confidence, control and trickery (malice) manipulation (mandinga) of the opponent (or of life)

And I believe that it is training the physical attributes I listed above that just generally help the body.

Problems are: training could be honed further to be more effective in a real fight.

A danger is if techniques are trained improperly, or if techniques are simply bad or not needed.

I have to get deeper before I can report on this.

Correct me if I am wrong. Full contact violent "kinda dangerous" sparring is what many believe is very good because it gets one used to getting hit and operating under fear and stress inducing situations?

I agree wit that.

What are other components of practical and effective self defense?

Well I probably have to read some of Bedards material!

adios

[Bill Glasheen]

Correct me if I am wrong. Full contact violent "kinda dangerous" sparring is what many believe is very good because it gets one used to getting hit and operating under fear and stress inducing situations?

It depends.

You are correct that it's important to be able to perform freeform under both physical and neurohormonal stress.

Any training venue has its limitations. Even a MMA setting teaches you only to fight empty-hand in a one-on-one setting with rules (albeit not so many). Many-on-one is different. Weapons present a different challenge. And while it's important to be able to take a hit (or more), it's more important not to get hit in the first place - if you can help it. Plus the goal of winning a match is quite different from the goal of survival. The need to shut things down as quickly as possible and recognize one's limitations are paramount.

Savor what you have and spend enough time to get good at it. Once you have a strong foundation (or two) in a small number of disciplines, then you can branch out with your martial knowledge and make of it what you want. And if you stay with it long enough, your goals will change with time, age, and life experience.

I consider uechi to be my basis. Although it wasnt until after wing chun when I started to get what training was all about.

While Uechi wasn't my first martial art, it eventually became my own basis. Its simplicity and principles-based approach combined with its unique ability to identify with both striking and grappling venues makes it a good "sticky board" for future martial endeavors. If this works for you, spend some time on your Sanchin foundation. You won't regret it. What you do with your Sanchin experience is your business, so don't pay attention to the style Nazis. A unique martial experience is yours to create and build upon.

- Bill

[chalkdust]

Thank you. I am most into the "for their sake" qualities of the principles of the different arts. The things that one develops, hones, trains and learns with sanchin, chi sau, ginga, or horse stance development for example. Then to apply this into sparring or free form exercises with others, and also see how these physical and mental attributes work in the gym, on the basketball court, This is what really fascinates me.

That is agreat idea! I will get a refresher on sanchin asap,

[gmattson]

is coming. . . Friday and Saturday, February 26 & 27th!

Roy Bedard is a regular presenter and I must add, one of our most popular presenter. We are expecting a number of very senior Uechi teachers who I'll be highlighting as soon as I get confirmation of their attendance.

But Roy has already committed to attending!

[mhosea]

I secretly have a gut feeling that uechi may be a little "better" or "deeper" than shotokan, [snip]

There is a different personality there. Uechi is a quiet, no-nonsense style that focuses on fundamentals. This is to be contrasted, I suppose, with an approach that focuses on learning a large catalog of specific attacks and defenses. It's not that any style does either to exclusion, and Shotokan is somewhere in the middle. I'm just talking about day-in-day-out emphasis in training. It takes patience to keep working on Sanchin, but it pays off. Roy Bedard, BTW, does a great lecture on why Sanchin is about fighting.

Perhaps the most obvious indication of this personality difference is that Gichin Funakoshi originally taught 15 kata, whereas Kanbun Uechi taught only 3. Now that's expanded to 26 for Shotokan, 8 for Uechi Ryu.

[chalkdust]

I secretly have a gut feeling that uechi may be a little "better" or "deeper" than shotokan, [snip]

There is a different personality there. Uechi is a quiet, no-nonsense style that focuses on fundamentals. This is to be contrasted, I suppose, with an approach that focuses on learning a large catalog of specific attacks and defenses. It's not that any style does either to exclusion, and Shotokan is somewhere in the middle. I'm just talking about day-in-day-out emphasis in training. It takes patience to keep working on Sanchin, but it pays off. Roy Bedard, BTW, does a great lecture on why Sanchin is about fighting.

Perhaps the most obvious indication of this personality difference is that Gichin Funakoshi originally taught 15 kata, whereas Kanbun Uechi taught only 3. Now that's expanded to 26 for Shotokan, 8 for Uechi Ryu.

would u say that all the kata and fundamentals and techniques are to train understanding of proper bone structure, joint/muscle/tendon control, ground connection, body connection/tandien and kime? be it shotokan, uechi or capoeira?

[chalkdust]

is coming. . . Friday and Saturday, February 26 & 27th!

Roy Bedard is a regular presenter and I must add, one of our most popular presenter. We are expecting a number of very senior Uechi teachers who I'll be highlighting as soon as I get confirmation of their attendance.

But Roy has already committed to attending!

Great!

[mhosea]

would u say that all the kata and fundamentals and techniques are to train understanding of proper bone structure, joint/muscle/tendon control, ground connection, body connection/tandien and kime? be it shotokan, uechi or capoeira?

Good question. I think that would over-simplify a complex situation. I would say, however, that Sanchin in Uechi and Naihanchi in Shorin Ryu (and I assume therefore, Tekki in Shotokan) are intended to train exactly that.

[f.Channell]

Capoera was taught in the next room to my Iaido class.
I often wondered if I should change rooms. Looked like a great class.
Seems so different from Shotokan. Interesting counterpoint to it.

F.