Judo versus Karate

f.Channell · Post by **f.Channell** » Sat Oct 31, 2009 12:42 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGcJSzp- ... -fresh+div
I know style versus style is taboo but every now and then you have to!
So here we have an old UFC fight. No telling the quality of the fighters, but interesting fight dominated by the grappler. Interesting in the sense we see straight up Judo throw, Judo pin (kesa gatame), and a choke.
Unfortunately we never got to see the Karate guy do a thing. Was he waiting for the attack fighting defensive like he was trained?

F.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Sat Oct 31, 2009 5:08 am

This isn't taboo, Fred. This is just two martial artists attempting to execute their respective game plans.

First... the grappler has both jiujitsu and judo training. It shows.

Second... The grappler had a slight height and size advantage (an inch and 30 pounds).

Third... The Okinawan karate martial artist had no idea how to face a grappler. Big mistake. I don't know how old this fight is, but after the Gracies dominated MMA tournaments you'd think he'd get a clue. You have to be reasonably fluent in both striking and grappling to survive in that sport.

And finally... As you said, the striker didn't do a damn thing. It looked like he only knew how to do distance fighting. Oye vey! He forgot he had elbows and knees when in close and being smothered. Once the grappler clinched, it was as good as over. It was like watching a boa take out a rat.

- Bill

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:07 pm

From what I recall of the old UFC matches...karate people from all styles, bar none, were pretty much useless.

You also se the fallacy of not practicing 'pre-emptive' striking...and just standing there in a pose, waiting for something to happen.

Pretty useless all right.

f.Channell · Post by **f.Channell** » Sat Oct 31, 2009 7:07 pm

That's what I was thinking Van.
He was waiting to react to a punch, he got grabbed instead.
He didn't know how to react in the clinch, probably because of stand up sparring and get back up if you fall conditioning.

F.

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Sat Oct 31, 2009 7:12 pm

It looks that way allright...but not something karate people would want to admit to.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Sat Oct 31, 2009 7:49 pm

Van Canna wrote:
not something karate people would want to admit to.

I don't know about "karate people", but I was embarrassed for him. That ignorant, dismissive attitude towards a legitimate martial art is the kind of arrogance that'll get you destroyed.

Look, ma, no more mystique!

- Bill

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Sat Oct 31, 2009 9:09 pm

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Sun Nov 01, 2009 2:35 pm

f.Channell wrote:That's what I was thinking Van.
He was waiting to react to a punch, he got grabbed instead.
He didn't know how to react in the clinch, probably because of stand up sparring and get back up if you fall conditioning.

F.

What do you think the karate guy would have done in the street?

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Sun Nov 01, 2009 2:38 pm

He is referred to as > The Okinawan karate martial artist <

So what if he weren't 'Okinawan Karate'

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Sun Nov 01, 2009 3:34 pm

Van Canna wrote:
What do you think the karate guy would have done in the street?

I think the real question, Van, is what would *they* have done on the street.

Let's start by redefining what we're looking at. This is NOT Okinawan karate vs. judo, although it's close to being half right. This somewhat anachronistic *sport* match is really kickboxing vs. grappling, with a slight weight advantage to the grappler and a knowledge blind spot on the part of the kickboxer. The "half right" part is that judo clearly is a sport.

The answer to the on-the-street question is "It depends."

These protracted mano e mano battles don't impress me as something that's relevant in a broad array of less controlled environments. While the grappler clearly dominated here, I'm not seeing this translate to any environment where just one more party is involved. It took too long.

What's missing? One of several big holes is the in-between game (elbows, knees, head butts) that the Muay Thai people successfully introduced to the sport ring. Not surprisingly, this body of material exists in the fighting art that Kanbun brought from China. This missing piece would have made "shut down" techniques more possible, and escapes from the protracted clinches more likely. (Those weak rabbit punches really were pathetic.)

I also don't see any good movement in this match. Could either party have pulled this off in a free-for-all environment? We don't know. (FWIW, we practice that format a lot.) If I had to put my money on either party, I'd probably give an edge to the jiujitsu guy. But that's based more on martial theory than it is on the individual abilities and executions we're looking at.

Just my opinion.

- Bill

f.Channell · Post by **f.Channell** » Sun Nov 01, 2009 4:53 pm

Looks like he's sparring the exact same way I was taught in the late 70's.
Fighting cautiously, fearful of a little pathetic strike from the defender that would be an "ippon",
Could more time in bunkai applying the clinch moves in kata be the way to go? Are our clinch moves properly trained and executed in the typical bunkai?
The sport training the Judo practitioner received worked. All he had to get was a piece of the guy to impact his balance, the rest is on the recording.

I wish the UFC was still like this, it's more interesting to see traditional styles employed.

I remember seeing UFC 1 at my sensei's Dojo in Stoughton at this time and thinking, "oh-oh" what was that he did to the Karate guy.

F.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Sun Nov 01, 2009 5:32 pm

f.Channell wrote:
Could more time in bunkai applying the clinch moves in kata be the way to go?

It can't hurt.

f.Channell wrote:
Are our clinch moves properly trained and executed in the typical bunkai?

No more than striking moves are properly trained and executed in an aikido dojo when nobody in one knows how to throw a punch.

A little cross-training is a good thing.

- Bill

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Sun Nov 01, 2009 8:02 pm

I think that this is a sort of martial arts paradox....you get an old master like Master Gushi.and I don't think that he would have a problem.he knows exactly where he's coming from and what he's doing.sometimes.in fact all the time if you are doing your art seriously you must know that you can and will hurt somebody badly...I know that I could....and it bothers me a lot...............if I really wanted to " punish" somebody then I would use a neck crank.rather like a chicken wing .and fall with it..............and the guy could try for the para olympics after that.other moves we've discussed before here..the double eye gouge ..Shomen Hisiki

....perhaps.can't remember the name..but I know the move

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Sun Nov 01, 2009 9:14 pm

They used to find shell casings in the pockets of policemen killed in gunfights

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Sun Nov 01, 2009 9:19 pm

.not all policemen

...some they only found the bullets in the perps