Shelly King
Junior Member posted 08-13-99 09:29 AM
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Thanks for all the advice. In fact last Wednesday during class, Sensei saw the male student I was training with pull a strike back while we were training together. I didn't catch the fact he had done it but Sensei sure did. The male student got about a 2 min. lecture on how he isn't doing me any favors by developing a false sense of security in me and I received about a 4 min lecture on making sure that I demand my partners to push my abilities. OH! Have to go...boring meeting.
IP: 198.232.248.42
JOHN THURSTON
Moderator posted 08-15-99 12:18 PM
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Lori et al:
Well, half my small school are ladies, so this is clearly a question I should address to them.
Oversimplification is a pain, I know, but I am not sure that the question of what their place was really stuck in my mind.
They made their place. I don't think we "accomodate" them.
I think its clear that we have to explain to them they have to be technically precise in execution of blocks and general structure, as do we all when contemplating dealing with larger opponents.
The Kyusho connection /direction would seem to especially an area of focus for those facing a probability of dealing with such situations.
JOHN T.
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IP: 205.188.192.24
Mary S
Junior Member posted 08-16-99 03:10 PM
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Hello out there. Just joined the forum today and thought I'd throw in my two cents. I am fortunate to go to the same dojo as Lori MacLeod-Doyle (Hi Lori!!) and working with Dave Hunt in Bedford, NS has been a wonderful experience. I have been reading with interest what has been written about men and women in the dojo. One thing I have started to notice as I progress is that the distance (difference) between the two sexes has diminished a bit. There seems to be a familiarity present in our dojo and a sense of respect not only to our senseis but to fellow students as well. I'm not sure this is the same for everyone as they continue the journey but my experience has been that I take something away from every workout with partners - male or female. My concentration seems to be on the karate. To me there will always be differences - some will have more strength, some - more flow. I try to take a litle bit from both... Please continue this forum...very interesting stuff!!!
IP: 216.83.13.34
Shelly King
Junior Member posted 08-17-99 04:48 PM
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Hello ladies, and gents, I have to say, I'm finding I do prefer to practice with men than women. I feel they tend to demand, at least, more from my reflexes; even if they are trying to "take it easy on me" sometimes. What is really surprising me though, that despite my aggressively competative nature, I'm not getting upset with how slowly my training is coming. Being an engineer, most things have always come easily for me (excluding my painful, sleep-deprived years at college). This is something that isn't "clicking" right away and I'm actually OK with that. I still grumble to myself when I can't get a certain move down, but it really doesn't bother me other than to try harder. I wonder if the majority of female martial artists are women who chose to work and play in male dominated areas even outside the dojo...sorry, had to do some actual work for a minute and have now lost my train of thought...I think where I was maybe going with this eventually would be asking for any tips on how to develop that "killer instinct". I've noticed when I practice after a really bad day at work, my kata looks and feels better. I think because I'm imagining our production manager lying broken and bloody at my feet...or something like that. All advice welcomed.
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Shelly
IP: 198.232.248.42
lori macleod-doyle
Junior Member posted 08-17-99 10:16 PM
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HELLO ALL,
I AGREE WITH SHELLY ABOUT WORKING OUT WITH THE GUYS. YOU CERTAINLY DO TEND TO GET YOUR REACTIONS TUNED UP IN A HURRY.
THE THING TO REMEMBER SHELLY, IS THAT YOU WILL NOT MASTER ANYTHING QUICKLY IN THE MARTIAL ARTS. IT IS A GRADUAL SERIES OF SMALL
ACCOMPLISMENTS.I STILL FIGHT WITH MY STANCE. SOME DAYS EVERY THING FEELS GOOD. THE NEXT DAY YOU FEEL LIKE A WHITE BELT AGAIN.IT'S TRUE WHAT YOU SAY ABOUT WORKING OUT AFTER A BAD DAY .THERE ARE NIGHTS I LITERALLY HAVE TO DRAG MYSELF TO THE DO-JO. THESE ARE OFTEN MY BEST WORKOUTS.MAYBY IT'S THE SUBCONCIOUS MINDS WAY OF ALEVIEATING THE DAYS STRESS.I DON'T KNOW, BUT OFTEN IT'S EXACTLY WHAT I NEED. I DEAL WITH THE PUBLIC EVERY DAY ON A PRETTY PERSONAL LEVEL( I AM A HAIRSTYLIST) AND I CAN CERTAINLY RELATE TO YOUR VISUALIZATION OF YOUR PRODUCT MANAGER BROKEN AND BLOODY.THE MARTIAL ARTS ARE THE BEST FORM OF STRESS RELIEF I'VE COME ACCROSS.KEEP WORKING ON YOUR BASICS AND EVERY THING WILL COME ALONG IN TIME. WHEN THINGS START TO FALL APART ON ME I ALWAYS GO BACK TO THE BASICS.
IT IS TRUE WHAT THEY SAY, ALL IS IN SANCHIN.
LORI M-D
IP: 142.177.207.159
Shelly King
Junior Member posted 08-17-99 10:43 PM
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Thanks Lori M-D
I might have to start thinking twice before I use my stylist as a shrink next time. I bet he does get tired of everyone telling him about their bad day. Have to say karate has done wonders for my stress level. When I started, my stress level was so high I was one step away from randomly mowing people down with my car. Now, setting in traffic for 45 min. doesn't even bother me. Gives me time to learn the hojo undo (sorry about the spelling. Now the only time I really get worked up about anything is if something comes up at work that will make me miss class. I've already moved one business trip to next week because I refused to miss this Wednesday's class. Special guest and all that. However I will miss next Monday. Anyone know a dojo in Omaha, NE? I don't know if it's the woman or engineer in me, but I'm facinated (and determined) with perfecting each single element of kata. Right now the hardest thing about the pace, is putting up with my husband's ego. He's starting to get a little cocky for a white belt.
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Shelly
IP: 198.232.248.42
lori macleod-doyle
Junior Member posted 08-17-99 11:43 PM
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hi shelly,
i really do enjoy hearing what goes on with my clients.i love my job and most days are fun and interesting,but we all know what people can be like. it only takes one to ruin a perfectly good day. i'm sure your stylist is the same way and is interested in what you're doing.just remember to ask him how he is from time to time.i'm sure he'll apprecieate it.
as far as your kata goes, like i said, it is a gradual thing.you just have to keep at it. don't get frustrated. keep a clear mind and don't over think it. as soon as i start to think about what comes next i screw up.work on your basic movements as much as you can. i can't tell you how many times people have walked into our staff room to find me working on an elbow strike or a jump back. i've gotten a few very strange looks while sitting in traffic and working on a particular hand movement.people must think i'm nuts!!!but i get obsessed with certain movements.i really love the fluidity of the katas and when you can combine the strength , the speed and the fluidity together it is a beautiful feeling.
i just wish i could get it all together more often.but that is what keeps us coming back to the do-jo.the search for perfection. i'll tell you a secret,there is no such thing as a perfect kata. but by god i'm going to try to get as close as i can!!!!!
as far as your husbands ego goes, don't worry. eventually he'll get put in his place.
there is always someone smoother,faster, stronger or whatever.everyone seems to go through an ego stage.i find that most people get over it fairly quickly ,thank god. if they don't there is usually someone who is willing to help them.do you and your husband work out together? my husband and i figured out very early on that we shouldn't pair off in the do-jo. neither one of us took criticism very well from the other.it really works well for us and also keeps the peace at home.good luck and i hope you enjoy your class wenesday night.special guests always make for an interesting workout.
LORI M-D :-)
IP: 142.177.205.99
Shelly King
Junior Member posted 08-18-99 12:17 AM
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Lori M-D
You are either in a distant time zone or you are one big night owl. I'm only up because one day a week I get the honor of supporting 2nd and 3rd shift at our plant.
I have developed a habit of photocopying in Sanchin. And yes I have gotten some really weird looks. Not to mention half the plant thinks I'm a battered wife because of my bruises.(no I'm not getting hit too hard in class, it is that wonderful German paleness and I'm sure some vitamin or mineral I'm lacking in my system, the whole family bruises really, really easily). It is also a good thing we don't use video cameras at work. The warehouse makes a really nice place to practice.
Sensei split us up when working in class, best move he has made yet. We were constantly nagging at each other. We do good as long as we only practice kata together. Anything else, and it gets ugly fast. Yeah, I'm waiting for someone to knock him down a few notches. A little humble pie isn't going to hurt him any.
I definately know what you mean by over-thinking the next move. In Kanchiwa kata(I know bad spelling), I never get the conversion from Sokuto geri to shiko dache which throws off the whole elbow strike. I'm thinking about getting that one move right from the moment we bow up to the point I screw it up. All I do is end up behind all the way through. I know, I know, one tiny step at a time.
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Shelly
IP: 198.232.248.42
Robb in Sacramento
Member posted 08-18-99 01:02 AM
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Lori M-D: I love your observations, especially about San Chin. My wife chides me that I can't yawn without turning it into some movement from a kata. I am not sure she is exagerating.
Shelly:
If you are an engineer, your mind and spirit have already been tested. So now, learning karate is just a matter of letting your body take over. Bright Uechi students sometimes make this art a bit too cerebral. Most great karate masters were farmers. Perhaps it has something to do with being in touch with the earth and in touch with themselves (I am from California, I can't help the touchy feely reference). It probably also has something to do with staying in rather good physical shape.
In all seriousness, the biggest obstacle to learning karate for most professionals is they spend too much time thinking and not enough time just doing. If you think about the kata or a movement, it is not the same as feeling the kata or movement. My first teacher use to say that after seven times through the kata one should have the movements. After that, it was a question of feeling the movement and perfecting the form.
Karate movements can be intimidating because many of us bring an expectation of some kind of performance and application to our learning the movement. We think we need to get it right the first time so we can use it if we need to. Except for the exceptionally gifted, few of us get a movement the first time through. Most of us are lucky if we are figuring it out a few years down the road. The Shotokan instructors are fond of relating a story of Funakoshi on his death bed doing rising blocks and proclaiming that he was finally mastering and understanding the technique.
As millions of Tae Bo students are learning though, if ones only expectation is exercise, karate like movements can be incorporated into a pattern of movements after a few viewings. Don't let the expectation of application or of perfecting a movement get in your way of doing the movement. Have fun. This is fun stuff. Enjoy. Peace.
Robb in Sacramento
IP: 205.188.198.188
JohnC
Member posted 08-18-99 12:45 PM
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Robb and others:
Very apt comment about over intellectualizing karate and making it too cerebral. I have this tendancy, too. Questions, wondering, this forum, etc, usually beyond my measure of study.
Maybe the early years with the GI's in Okinawa/Japan got the best training from Okinawans - grunts, hand signals, simple commands "lower" " Do again" "Makiwara"
etc. no over intellectualizing here! Just plain, hard repetitive practice with taskmasters.
One of my martial arts teachers repeatedly tells me to just " do it"
JohnC
[This message has been edited by JohnC (edited 08-18-99).]
IP: 204.144.0.253
Sue
Junior Member posted 08-18-99 11:31 PM
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Hello all, I've just signed up. I find this forum facinating. I've just read through the responces to the original question and subsequent flow of topic. This topic does seem to stike a cord with many, resulting in many most elequent responces.
(please forgive spelling, I'm lost without my spell check )
I'd like to add my two cents to the original question. Because it's been almost 15 years since I first became involved with martial arts, I've had some time to ponder this whole issue. I feel the study of martial arts in general and Uechi-Ryu in particular, by women, has a role and effect in many areas.
The first area is personal. This I don't think is very different for men and women. People start practicing karate for many reasons; health, fitness, self defence, fun, social contacts, self confidence, stress management, and so on. If people keep studying the art, the reasons often change, but remain meaningful to the student. There may be some reasons more common to women, others more common to men, and of course many reasons common to both.
The second area affected is in the dojo. This effect is often influenced by the Sensei, and other senior students. As many of you have found (by your comments), the Ueichi-Ryu style seems to have developed into/maintained? leaders and instructors with a generally open and supportive attitude toward anyone showing good spirit toward the study of the art. Having women training in a dojo with this attitude only enhances the (I think) fundamental concept of respect for another student based on their spirit, commitment and courage, independant of physical, or mental abilities.
The third area affected is the community, and generally society. I feel, on a basic level, that the perception a person has of their ability to defend/protect themselves physically, has a strong bearing on the person's self confidence and ability to be assertive. There are of course exceptions, however there is research which shows girls involved in sports and regular fitness activities demonstrate increased self confidence through their teens as compared to their inactive peers. Through personal experience I would have to agree with this, having started practicing karate when I was 16. Women involved in karate can support the image of women as strong, fit, physically skilled, and confident,(among other things) without being masculine. This can only be a good thing. As well, as more men with less than open minds about women's role in society meet and interact with karate trained women, we can hope attitudes in general will keep changing.
This was more like a Canadian Toonie, than two cents...
I have more thoughts and would love to hear yours, so I'll be back.
Take care,
Sue
IP: 24.64.197.133
On Men and Women TrainingTogether
Moderator: Available
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lori macleod-doyle
- Posts: 232
- Joined: Tue Aug 03, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: lr.sackville n.s. canada
On Men and Women TrainingTogether
hi sue welcome to the forum. it's nice to hear from the wet coast.(hee-hee )i mean west coast. i'll add a loonies worth to what you posted. it is very true that women who are are involved in sports, and in areas that are concidered male , do have a better level of self confidence than those who do not.i have always found myself in areas that are concidered male activities. i study karate of course, i ride a motorcycle and i have become addicted to snowboarding. this seems to cause a great deal of intrest from people.i feel that being involved in these types of activities has increased my confidence as well as opening doors of opportunity and conversation.people wonder why i do these things.i tell them that i feel exhillerated by the challange of mastering something that scares me. this ,i think , really boosts ones self confidence and creates a feeling of accomplishment. i also find that because of these activities i have met other people with similar intrests who are supportive and encouraging which inturn is a confidence builder.women who are not challanged or do not challange them selves often have lower expectations for themselves i think.it is true what you say about men with less than open minds in these areas.manys a time i have
been in situations or conversations where i have been dismissed as just a girl but when you can step up to the plate and state your opinions and views(of which i have plenty) with athority and confidence it helps to open some of those closed minds, even if it's just a crack, it's a start.
lori m-d
ps. i saw your post on another forum. did you find a do-jo in victoria yet?
been in situations or conversations where i have been dismissed as just a girl but when you can step up to the plate and state your opinions and views(of which i have plenty) with athority and confidence it helps to open some of those closed minds, even if it's just a crack, it's a start.
lori m-d
ps. i saw your post on another forum. did you find a do-jo in victoria yet?
On Men and Women TrainingTogether
Great thread! I've really been enjoying the posts - and would especially like to welcome Shelley, Mary, Lori M-D, and Sue! It's great to hear from you! I hope all of you will become regular contributors.
With my new schedule, I don't have much time for writing during the week, but I am touching base and reading when I can, and I plan to respond on the weekends - so here's a start.
As an instructor, I find myself approaching techniques differently for men and women - not to slight one side or another, but certain aspects of our art that I've worked on from a female angle I like to pass on, much the same as I would have given quite a bit to have a senior female karateka role model as I was coming up through the kyu ranks. (I worked out with males only until a couple years past shodan...they were wonderful - very tough with me and taught me so much - yet it would have been nice to work with a senior female once in a while.) Not that they don't exist, but senior uechi women are few and far between in Florida, and at the time, our dojo didn't connect too often with other dojos across the state. On a rare occasion when I had the chance to work with a senior female, I met with different responses. One senior just told me to practice, I'd figure it out. Very supportive of her. Little did she know I would have travelled regularly to get some extra training from a female if she would have given me an ounce of encouragement. Then at a test on the west coast, I met with an amazing woman from Arizona, and I soaked up everything I could, and she seemed to understand what I was looking for. Too bad Arizona was too far to travel for me!
So I went it alone, and after teaching a few women's self defense classes at the local community center, our female enrollment has grown from 1% to almost 50%. And we have mostly male teachers, plus me - and as far as I know, everyone is benefitting from training with both genders. Again, I feel that this is only due to the emphasis on respect that pervades our dojo, because of the tradition carried on and enforced by my sensei.
This is not to say that there is never any light-hearted teasing or humor involved - I firmly believe that humor helps bridge some of the gaps! It is important to use courtesy to keep it tasteful and not go too far.
For those of you who are lucky enough to train with a significant other (SO), you have noted some of the drawbacks, and I'm sure you've noticed many of the benefits as well. You may have noticed your partner being treated differently with regards to his/her training, and hopefully are finding ways to learn from these differences to your own benefit. The courtesy and respect that should pervade all aspects of training will help to bridge these gaps (provided ego doesn't get in the way!) As an instructor, when I have a husband/wife team start together, they may progress through ranks together, but inevitably one moves ahead of the other, and I don't even want to guess at the family politics that ensue! But again, if respect is an integral part of rank, then problems of that nature should be eliminated.
If you train, and your S.O. does not, then there are an entire new set of drawbacks. You work out, you may travel to karate functions, you may be gone many nights out of the week at the dojo. This is an adjustment that I would suppose has caused havoc on more than one relationship.
But men and women can learn a lot from each other, inside the dojo and on these forums - and I am thrilled to see the interaction here - I'm sure that the effects are more far-reaching than we might suspect!
Thanks again to all the contributors - I wish I would have had access to a forum like this when I was first starting my study of the martial arts!
Peace,
Lori
With my new schedule, I don't have much time for writing during the week, but I am touching base and reading when I can, and I plan to respond on the weekends - so here's a start.
As an instructor, I find myself approaching techniques differently for men and women - not to slight one side or another, but certain aspects of our art that I've worked on from a female angle I like to pass on, much the same as I would have given quite a bit to have a senior female karateka role model as I was coming up through the kyu ranks. (I worked out with males only until a couple years past shodan...they were wonderful - very tough with me and taught me so much - yet it would have been nice to work with a senior female once in a while.) Not that they don't exist, but senior uechi women are few and far between in Florida, and at the time, our dojo didn't connect too often with other dojos across the state. On a rare occasion when I had the chance to work with a senior female, I met with different responses. One senior just told me to practice, I'd figure it out. Very supportive of her. Little did she know I would have travelled regularly to get some extra training from a female if she would have given me an ounce of encouragement. Then at a test on the west coast, I met with an amazing woman from Arizona, and I soaked up everything I could, and she seemed to understand what I was looking for. Too bad Arizona was too far to travel for me!
So I went it alone, and after teaching a few women's self defense classes at the local community center, our female enrollment has grown from 1% to almost 50%. And we have mostly male teachers, plus me - and as far as I know, everyone is benefitting from training with both genders. Again, I feel that this is only due to the emphasis on respect that pervades our dojo, because of the tradition carried on and enforced by my sensei.
This is not to say that there is never any light-hearted teasing or humor involved - I firmly believe that humor helps bridge some of the gaps! It is important to use courtesy to keep it tasteful and not go too far.
For those of you who are lucky enough to train with a significant other (SO), you have noted some of the drawbacks, and I'm sure you've noticed many of the benefits as well. You may have noticed your partner being treated differently with regards to his/her training, and hopefully are finding ways to learn from these differences to your own benefit. The courtesy and respect that should pervade all aspects of training will help to bridge these gaps (provided ego doesn't get in the way!) As an instructor, when I have a husband/wife team start together, they may progress through ranks together, but inevitably one moves ahead of the other, and I don't even want to guess at the family politics that ensue! But again, if respect is an integral part of rank, then problems of that nature should be eliminated.
If you train, and your S.O. does not, then there are an entire new set of drawbacks. You work out, you may travel to karate functions, you may be gone many nights out of the week at the dojo. This is an adjustment that I would suppose has caused havoc on more than one relationship.
But men and women can learn a lot from each other, inside the dojo and on these forums - and I am thrilled to see the interaction here - I'm sure that the effects are more far-reaching than we might suspect!
Thanks again to all the contributors - I wish I would have had access to a forum like this when I was first starting my study of the martial arts!
Peace,
Lori
On Men and Women TrainingTogether
Hi all,
lori m-d, no unfortunately, I haven't found an instructor yet,
.
Yes, I've found the same thing as far as meeting other people with similar outlooks on life though. People willing to take a risk and try something new.
I could have used more female perspective in my early training as well. I figured some of it out on my own, and I've also had some wonderful sensei's who, having worked out with skilled female seniors and sensei's, had some perspective on the situation.
I found not having any, or few women in the classes I've trained with, gave me great motivation for attending tournaments. It gave me the chance to meet, chat with, and compete against other women. Has anyone else found that women tend to fight differently than men? It always seemed in someways, harder to fight women, but that may be simply an effect of training mainly with men, or maybe, what I was taught, works best against men. Hmmmm!
Sue
lori m-d, no unfortunately, I haven't found an instructor yet,
.Yes, I've found the same thing as far as meeting other people with similar outlooks on life though. People willing to take a risk and try something new.
I could have used more female perspective in my early training as well. I figured some of it out on my own, and I've also had some wonderful sensei's who, having worked out with skilled female seniors and sensei's, had some perspective on the situation.
I found not having any, or few women in the classes I've trained with, gave me great motivation for attending tournaments. It gave me the chance to meet, chat with, and compete against other women. Has anyone else found that women tend to fight differently than men? It always seemed in someways, harder to fight women, but that may be simply an effect of training mainly with men, or maybe, what I was taught, works best against men. Hmmmm!
Sue
On Men and Women TrainingTogether
Hi Sue,
(since your bio has no e-mail return...)
I live in Langford, just outside of Victoria and I run the Yama Neko (Mountain Cat) dojo on Happy Valley Rd. There really are a lot of good teachers in V. so I hope you keep looking.
We practice Shorin-ji ryu, the only Uechi fellow I know moved to Salt Spring or one of the other islands. We also do Filipino stick and knife work, Chinese bagua zhang and a little tai chi and some western close quarter combat stuff. Phone us up anytime, Ted and pPam at 474-5434.
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The Fighting Old Man
(since your bio has no e-mail return...)
I live in Langford, just outside of Victoria and I run the Yama Neko (Mountain Cat) dojo on Happy Valley Rd. There really are a lot of good teachers in V. so I hope you keep looking.
We practice Shorin-ji ryu, the only Uechi fellow I know moved to Salt Spring or one of the other islands. We also do Filipino stick and knife work, Chinese bagua zhang and a little tai chi and some western close quarter combat stuff. Phone us up anytime, Ted and pPam at 474-5434.
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The Fighting Old Man
On Men and Women TrainingTogether
Hi Shelly,
Good question! And one I've brought up a couple of times - but with little or no response - maybe we'll luck out this time.
There is a dearth of Uechi tournaments in my neck of the woods - most local tourneys are Taekwondo related - and I've yet to venture into those - the rules are too different from what we train with - and I'd need a lot more practice before I'd feel comfortable taking that on...
As far as Uechi tournaments go - I understand that New England has some great tournouts - but there are still different classes for women and men - and it seems that mostly women train with men - so why not have a mixed class somewhere? I can see the reasons pro and con - but it would seem that there would be a call for a mixed gender division. Is there one? I'm not aware of it.
Well, maybe as our style grows we will see more opportunities like that.
Hopefully we'll get some input on this one.
Peace,
Lori
Good question! And one I've brought up a couple of times - but with little or no response - maybe we'll luck out this time.
There is a dearth of Uechi tournaments in my neck of the woods - most local tourneys are Taekwondo related - and I've yet to venture into those - the rules are too different from what we train with - and I'd need a lot more practice before I'd feel comfortable taking that on...
As far as Uechi tournaments go - I understand that New England has some great tournouts - but there are still different classes for women and men - and it seems that mostly women train with men - so why not have a mixed class somewhere? I can see the reasons pro and con - but it would seem that there would be a call for a mixed gender division. Is there one? I'm not aware of it.
Well, maybe as our style grows we will see more opportunities like that.
Hopefully we'll get some input on this one.
Peace,
Lori
On Men and Women TrainingTogether
Thank-you Sochin, for your kind answer. I will give you guys a call. The Uechi fellow of whom you speak, is I believe, the same person I trained with for about a year. He moved to Salt Spring, but then moved onto a club in Colorado about 2 years ago. I haven't heard from him.
I'm glad you enjoyed your first tournament, Shelly. Just wait till you enter one!
I prefer tournaments which mix men's and women's kata competition, but keep kumite seperate. I've only entered kumite as a white belt and as a green belt, and I don't think the women would've wanted to fight the guys and I'm pretty sure the guys wouldn't have wanted to fight the women. There is a definite weight and arm reach advantage for the average guy competing against the average woman, and kumite in the lower belt levels has almost as much to do with natural ability as it does training. I think, my perspective might change if I were to compete at the brown or black belt levels, but I will have to leave that to someone who's been there. I've always enjoyed watching the mixed ompetitions.
Sue
I'm glad you enjoyed your first tournament, Shelly. Just wait till you enter one!
I prefer tournaments which mix men's and women's kata competition, but keep kumite seperate. I've only entered kumite as a white belt and as a green belt, and I don't think the women would've wanted to fight the guys and I'm pretty sure the guys wouldn't have wanted to fight the women. There is a definite weight and arm reach advantage for the average guy competing against the average woman, and kumite in the lower belt levels has almost as much to do with natural ability as it does training. I think, my perspective might change if I were to compete at the brown or black belt levels, but I will have to leave that to someone who's been there. I've always enjoyed watching the mixed ompetitions.
Sue
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Shelly King
On Men and Women TrainingTogether
Hello ladies(and gents)
Went to my first tournament yesterday (didn't participate, just watched). I was really impressed by the open, friendly nature that everybody exhibited. There was a couple of different styles represented and it was really nice to see all the kids(even those 20+ years young) trading techniques and information. I was disappointed in not seeing any women in the adult kumite. Not that I have any room to say anything, since I didn't do it either, but I was really hoping to get to see how they competed. I did see some very young, impressive ladies. One girl in particular couldn't have been more than 6 or 7 but when she would get in the ring she was ready for business. If only I had half her glare. Of all the styles there, I have to say I thought the Uechiryu demonstration stole the show, but then again I might be a little biased about it. So anyway the question here is, do most tournaments have separate mens and womens divisions or is everybody grouped together? and what do you guys prefer? and why don't many women do the kumite portion of tournaments?
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Shelly
Went to my first tournament yesterday (didn't participate, just watched). I was really impressed by the open, friendly nature that everybody exhibited. There was a couple of different styles represented and it was really nice to see all the kids(even those 20+ years young) trading techniques and information. I was disappointed in not seeing any women in the adult kumite. Not that I have any room to say anything, since I didn't do it either, but I was really hoping to get to see how they competed. I did see some very young, impressive ladies. One girl in particular couldn't have been more than 6 or 7 but when she would get in the ring she was ready for business. If only I had half her glare. Of all the styles there, I have to say I thought the Uechiryu demonstration stole the show, but then again I might be a little biased about it. So anyway the question here is, do most tournaments have separate mens and womens divisions or is everybody grouped together? and what do you guys prefer? and why don't many women do the kumite portion of tournaments?
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Shelly
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Shelly King
On Men and Women TrainingTogether
Sue
Excellent point. Since I'm new to this, help me out...at what point does kumite become a requirement for promotion? If as you pointed out that in the lower ranks sparring is more natural ability than training, then there should be different divisions but maybe it should be based on size and weight not gender. Now like you said for the higher ranks, it should be more about the training than the gender. So if all brown or black belts are required to have some minimum ability in kumite then they should be capable of sparring with anyone else at their rank effectively. I don't know guys, what do you think? Don't be shy, let it out.
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Shelly
Excellent point. Since I'm new to this, help me out...at what point does kumite become a requirement for promotion? If as you pointed out that in the lower ranks sparring is more natural ability than training, then there should be different divisions but maybe it should be based on size and weight not gender. Now like you said for the higher ranks, it should be more about the training than the gender. So if all brown or black belts are required to have some minimum ability in kumite then they should be capable of sparring with anyone else at their rank effectively. I don't know guys, what do you think? Don't be shy, let it out.
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Shelly
On Men and Women TrainingTogether
Hi Shelly,
Sparring requirements differ from dojo to dojo as to promotions. In our dojo - sparring is required for both formal kyu tests - green and brown. We treat these tests as "rehersals" for the shodan test - and run them the same way - substituting the appropriate shietei kata, bunkai, and kumite. At these ranks the board chooses the partners - and gender is not usually a factor - level of training and rank are the deciding factors.
Tournaments are a different story however - and Sue brings up some good points.
For promotions thus far I've been paired with male and female opponents - and never really considered it an issue before now.
I would also like to hear opinions from the guys as to sparring divisions in tournaments.
Peace,
Lori
Sparring requirements differ from dojo to dojo as to promotions. In our dojo - sparring is required for both formal kyu tests - green and brown. We treat these tests as "rehersals" for the shodan test - and run them the same way - substituting the appropriate shietei kata, bunkai, and kumite. At these ranks the board chooses the partners - and gender is not usually a factor - level of training and rank are the deciding factors.
Tournaments are a different story however - and Sue brings up some good points.
For promotions thus far I've been paired with male and female opponents - and never really considered it an issue before now.
I would also like to hear opinions from the guys as to sparring divisions in tournaments.
Peace,
Lori
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lori macleod-doyle
- Posts: 232
- Joined: Tue Aug 03, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: lr.sackville n.s. canada
On Men and Women TrainingTogether
Greetings,
In our do-jo formal testings are held for all kyu ranks of sichi-kyu and above and sparring is included in all testings.This is a great advantage as these testings really help to prepare for the dan test. As with Lori's experiences I have been paired with both men and women for my testings. This gives us all the chance to spar with people of different sizes,weights and strengths as well as gender.This gives everyone the feel of what sparring under pressure may be like. Of course this is not as intense as a real life situation could be , but the stress factor is definatly higher than just a class setting.
As for tournaments, I, unfortunatly am not able to attend many due to my work schedule but our local tournaments also have seperate devisions for mens and womens sparring. I agree with Sue that the kata and bunkai are fine as mixed compititions but that kumite should be kept separate.
Regards, Lori M-D
In our do-jo formal testings are held for all kyu ranks of sichi-kyu and above and sparring is included in all testings.This is a great advantage as these testings really help to prepare for the dan test. As with Lori's experiences I have been paired with both men and women for my testings. This gives us all the chance to spar with people of different sizes,weights and strengths as well as gender.This gives everyone the feel of what sparring under pressure may be like. Of course this is not as intense as a real life situation could be , but the stress factor is definatly higher than just a class setting.
As for tournaments, I, unfortunatly am not able to attend many due to my work schedule but our local tournaments also have seperate devisions for mens and womens sparring. I agree with Sue that the kata and bunkai are fine as mixed compititions but that kumite should be kept separate.
Regards, Lori M-D
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Shelly King
On Men and Women TrainingTogether
Hi Sue
I want to back up a bit to something you asked early about finding it easier to spar with men then women. I'm finding it easier too even though I'm definately at a disadvantage physically. In my mind, the men pose a greater threat and that helps get the adrenaline flowing. It's easier to visualize that this is someone who wants to hurt me so I'm able to respond better. I don't take it nearly as serious if it's another woman standing across from me. Also, I think women are not as naturally aggressive as men when it comes to picking fights,(my husband would probably disagree about that though), so when you get two women together it seems neither is willing to make the first attack.
Just a thought...
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Shelly
I want to back up a bit to something you asked early about finding it easier to spar with men then women. I'm finding it easier too even though I'm definately at a disadvantage physically. In my mind, the men pose a greater threat and that helps get the adrenaline flowing. It's easier to visualize that this is someone who wants to hurt me so I'm able to respond better. I don't take it nearly as serious if it's another woman standing across from me. Also, I think women are not as naturally aggressive as men when it comes to picking fights,(my husband would probably disagree about that though), so when you get two women together it seems neither is willing to make the first attack.
Just a thought...
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Shelly
