The Gender Gap on Gun Control Issues

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Lori
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The Gender Gap on Gun Control Issues

Post by Lori »

Am I a minority among a minority? Are women still considered a minority? Much is being made of the "gender gap" in political issues - (for some interesting polls see the below link to the PEW Research Center) gun control, nuclear armament, trade with China. It seems that on the issue of gun control, the driving force seems to be women voters.

Call me naive but why is there so much effort on enacting more legislation instead of enforcing the laws already on the books? Is there some "movement" to work on this social dilemma or am I missing something? Passing more laws must be cheaper than enforcing the ones we have.

Tragedies with guns and children are horrible. As a mother this is a serious concern of mine - knowing that my daughter has seen a gun in school and in discussions with my own fourth grade class over 90% said they could get their hands on a gun within a day if they were so inclined. (Note: I do not teach in an inner city - actually a nice suburb on the upper side of a middle class neighborhood - very active parent involvement in school - no gangs on campus etc. etc.) These are all "good" kids, yet guns are accessible to them. As a teacher - does this scare me? With some of the most troublesome kids - sometimes yes. But am I an advocate of more legislation to control the sale of handguns? No - what I am in favor of is education - for these kids - for their parents - and for the people who think that yet another law is going to protect us. The ink on the bill will not protect us from the guns already out there. The ink on the bill will not keep the criminals from scoring a gun when they want one. But educating these kids on gun safety - and lobbying for enforcing to the full extent of the law the consequences for crimes committed with guns will.

I've read that most violent crimes are actually committed by repeat offenders. Too many stories are in the papers almost daily about some scumbag with a record for violent crime, out on parole or early release - has "done it again." Why isn't there an outcry on this? Why is so much effort being made on restricting the rights of law-abiding citizens (the only ones affected by all the new legislation it seems) to protect themselves from those who hold themselves outside the law as it is?

Again I ask - am I missing something here?

Please do not hesitate to post an opposing view - I may moderate this forum but it doesn't make my opinion the only one. It only gives me the pleasure to delete offensive or insulting (or too inquisitive Image ) posts. Dissention and discussion of the topic at hand always welcome. If you are in favor of more gun control - please post and enlighten me. I am truly interested in finding out what I'm missing here.

Safe journey,
Lori

Here's the link mentioned above: http://www.people-press.org/may00rpt2.htm

Excerpt below:

<blockquote>More Men Favor Gun Owners' Rights

Since March, most of the movement on gun control has come among men, who now narrowly favor owners' rights over gun control (49%-46%). Men over age 50, in particular, are much more supportive of the rights of gun owners. Fully 55% say those rights are more important than gun control, up from 37% just two months ago. Women of all age groups remain strong supporters of gun control.

The partisan gap on this issue is also substantial. Republicans narrowly choose protecting gun owners' rights over controlling gun ownership (50%-46%). In March, GOP adherents opted for gun control by a 55%-40% margin. Democrats continue to strongly endorse gun control. Two-thirds say (67%) it's more important than protecting owners' rights. Independents come down on the side of gun control, but the percentage supporting owners' rights has increased significantly (41% now, up from 28% in March).

Regardless of where they stand on the gun issue, Americans are somewhat dubious about the prospects of major gun legislation this year. Only 14% say it is very likely Congress will pass major new gun control laws this year, another 34% say it is somewhat likely. Nearly half (46%) say it is not too likely or not at all likely that legislation will be enacted.

Supporters of gun control are slightly less optimistic than opponents about the passage of new gun laws. Among those who say gun control is more important than gun owners' rights, 47% believe it is likely there will be new laws this year, while 48% say this is unlikely. Among those who favor gun owners' rights over gun control, 50% say there will likely be new laws, and 43% expect no new laws.

The public has not yet heard much about the Million Mom March. Only 10% have heard a lot, 42% have heard a little, and nearly half (48%) have heard nothing at all. Even among mothers, only 11% have heard a good deal about the march; half have heard at least a little. Roughly one-in-five women (21%) and slightly more mothers (28%) say they would be interested in attending the march. Not surprisingly, those "interested" women overwhelmingly support gun control. Eight-in-ten (81%) say controlling gun ownership is more important than protecting gun owners' rights, this compares with 73% of all moms. </blockquote>
Kristy
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The Gender Gap on Gun Control Issues

Post by Kristy »

Lori,

I am in not favor of more gun control laws. We have plenty of gun control laws already. More laws are only going to hurt the good citizen. Do you think a criminal cares about gun laws? No.

As for the Million Mom March, I didn't hear about it and there was no where near a million women at this march. Actually a very small percentage.

Kristy
JOHN THURSTON
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The Gender Gap on Gun Control Issues

Post by JOHN THURSTON »

Lori:

I think the 'perception' is that, at least in Masachusetts, that the majority of women are 'anti gun'. The MMM did not help this perception.

I have run into complete 'roadblocks' in terms of any discussion on the subject, common responses:

1. 'I hate guns' (I hate snakes)
2. 'I won't allow them in my house' (fine with me)
3. 'Guns Scare me' (they scare me too, but.....)
4. 'If you have guns in your house, my child can't come over to play there with yours' (Your caution is well placed, my guns are secure, and if my word is not sufficient, I don't want your child to come over)

5. (by a woman former GI) 'I don't get it, why do men want these things, I had to handle them in the service, but I don'y want them around' (fine, don't have them around, however, you did take an oath to support and defend the Constitution, not just the parts YOU like).

And so on.

But, thise are views expressed in a very liberal state.

JT

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Lori
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The Gender Gap on Gun Control Issues

Post by Lori »

Okay - so we have a perception that many women are anti-gun. Excluding groups like the Second Ammendment Sisters and the like - the general populace seems to believe that anyone with an ounce of motherhood or femininity is anti-gun.

I'm not - many of the female posters on these forums have expressed a like opinion. I have said in prior posts that I am an advocate of enforcing existing laws, and EDUCATION.

Now, here is a puzzler that I truly hope I will get some feedback on. My son is pretty young - still enjoying many pretend games - and movies like Star Wars with space ships and light sabers and laser guns. He is enthralled with water guns and toy pistols and the like - and I am concerned with developing a safe and educated attitude toward firearms. We have discussed many times, since he was quite young, that guns are NOT toys, and in simplest terms, that they are used to defend oneself against the "bad guys" - because bad guys will often use guns on "good guys." That is why guns are for people like police, or grown-ups who have to protect their family when the police are not nearby. So my questions are these:

1) What kind of play is safe for children regarding water guns, toy guns etc. when they are very young? And I mean "safe" in all the many implications - not taking firearms lightly, not mistaking a real gun for a toy, not forming opinions that shooting guns means the person you shot will get back up again to play some more. Was cowboys and indians really a good game in the "old days?"

2) At what age should children be exposed to real firearms and their use and potential? I did this with my daughter when she was merely five years old. Showing her my gun, and taking her out to a range where she could see and hear the results of firing it. I showed her how it was loaded and how it was fired. Then I helped her hold the gun and we fired it together so she could see what it was like. We also examined what the bullet could do to various objects from fence posts to cans, etc. She developed what I consider to be a healthy respect for firearms, handling herself excellently when exposed to a gun in school that a student was showing off, and another time when one was found in a neighborhood not too far from our own house. What more could/should I have taught her?

How are those of you who are actively training with firearms as part of your force continuum dealing with the issues facing your children?

Looking forward to your input,
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Lori
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RACastanet
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The Gender Gap on Gun Control Issues

Post by RACastanet »

Hi Lori. I have a 17 year old son and a 19 year old daughter. They both understand a gun's lethality and proper useage.

My son Chris, has been going to the range with me periodically for years. Last year he even spent a few hours with my gunteacher. He has a thorough understanding and respect for firearms. However, they are all locked up and he has no easy access to them. He would like the combination to the lockboxes 'just in case' but the answer is 'not yet'!

He is a good shot with shotguns and rifles but pretty bad with pistols/revolvers. As a result, he has little interest in handguns. They really do require a commitment to be a good shot with them.

Samantha has shown little interest and has never fired a real gun. She has a few male friends interested in law enforcement so she is just now asking about them. Her best friend's dad is a city officer and a coworker's father is a captain in the State Police. Hopefully before she heads back to school we'll make at least one trip to the range.

Both Sam and Chris grew up with water guns and cap guns, as I did. They regularly played cops and robbers with their friends as well. They even play video games! And neither one has shown any sociopathic tendencies as yet, believe it or not. They are just a couple of nice kids.

The bottom line in our house is that gun safety is #1: Act as if all guns are loaded and don't point one at anything or anyone you are not planning to do damage to it/them.

Rich
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Van Canna
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The Gender Gap on Gun Control Issues

Post by Van Canna »

The Eddie Eagle tape from the NRA is an excellent device to program children not to touch, leave the area, and tell an adult when happening on a gun at home or at the home of friends.

Five years old is a good age to start the exposure to the lethality of the firearms so the child imprints in his brain their destructive force. As the child matures he should be allowed to learn about firearms and to shoot them at the range, if so inclined, so as to remove the curiosity factor.

Toy gunplay, IMO, not very wise! There should be no such thing as gunplay. Even a toy gun can be mistaken as a real gun and invite serious retribution. Pointing toy guns/water guns at people programs bad gun handling habits in children very difficult to break from in their adulthood.

Even if you hate guns, you should consider having your child “trained “ as above because guns are everywhere. The child may well find himself in the home of friends or relatives with some loose gun around, loaded, and no lock!

And never, never, “dry fire” a gun in the house even if you are absolutely sure there are no bullets in the house or the gun. Take your dry fire practice to the range.


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Van Canna
Lori
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The Gender Gap on Gun Control Issues

Post by Lori »

Thank you both for your input! Rich - I'm glad you jumped in on this one as I gathered from your posts that you had children - and as our resident "Charlton Heston" of the forums I was interested to see how you handle this issue in your own home.

Van - I value and appreciate your advice (as always! Image ) and especially so here - I suspected there was some type of material somewhere regarding this - and while I've seen gun safety coloring books and the like I've not seen a video - I will check into the one you mention very soon.

I suppose a woman's intuition may be at work here as I suspected most of what you say about gun play. As of yet I have not allowed toy guns in my house, and refused repeated requests for waterguns and the like. Now however as his social circle grows, he has toy guns galore to play with when with these other boys, and he has an increasing fascination with them - probably moreso because I won't buy him any. I have "stuck to my guns" with my tired speech that guns are NOT toys, they hurt people VERY bad, and little Mr. Logical responds to me that these are only toys and they can't hurt anybody. So I continue that because real guns are so serious, that even playing with them is not a good idea because then people think it is okay to play with real ones, to which he responds that he knows that real guns aren't for playing with - and he'll be "very careful" with the toy ones! Okay, so he's got the argument here (you can sense my frustration with this issue) but I still had the gut feeling that gun play may set up bad habits... given my own views on guns and rights and self-protection, I was not chalking it up to the over-protective mommy syndrome (even if I am!) I just want gun education to be "right" - and not build in any bad foundations. Sounds like I was on the right track with my daughter - but then again, she never wanted to have toy guns so I never had to deal with this one!

Thanks again to both of you.
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Van Canna
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The Gender Gap on Gun Control Issues

Post by Van Canna »

How will he know a toy gun from a real one?

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Van Canna
Lori
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The Gender Gap on Gun Control Issues

Post by Lori »

That is part of my question above - when to begin education on that distiction - is it feasible or even advisable to begin "real gun" education before age five? And IMO there is no way for a child to determine the difference between a real gun and a toy given the look of some of the toys! This is another reason I feel gun play is dangerous!
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Panther
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The Gender Gap on Gun Control Issues

Post by Panther »

I think I've found the only time I've read something from Canna-sempai that I even partially disagree with! Image

Let's not get carried away here... Yes, there are some toy guns that look (and feel) real. Should that stop you from allowing a child to play with toys that are obviously toys? (IMNSHO) NO! Water "pistols"? Come-on... As long as they're like the ones we had when I was a kid (clear, bright-colored plastic that you could see the water level and mechanisms inside), they're just good summer fun! Image On the other hand, should one allow a child to show "bad gun handling" with a realistic toy? Absolutely NOT! Anything that looks real should be treated as real, but don't underestimate even a 5 year olds ability to tell real from fake... Kids have been playing "cops & robbers" and "cowboys & indians" for decades using "toys". (When I was a kid, we couldn't afford toy guns, so we used sticks and even carved our own little wooden pistols out of blocks of wood. Then again, we were allowed to have jack-knifes as 5-6 year olds back then! Image )

Lori-san,

A friend of mine (who happens to be the president of a local club and a member of the GOAL Board of Directors) has a 7 year old daughter... she shoots and is a damn good shot to boot! She doesn't shoot a "Dirty-Harry" Magnum, but can handle a .22lr pistol with more repsect and safety than many adults I've been on the range with! I'm also friends with the folks at GOAL who put on the Eddie Eagle (tm) Safety classes. (Even the guy that wears the costume Image ) If you want any further information, materials, a contact... let me know how to get in touch and I'll get you what you need. If you have the program (Eddie Eagle (tm)) offered in the local schools, the schools (very often the local DARE officer will get involved in giving the program and the the officer can get the materials just like the school) can get a certain amount of the materials for FREE. That cost is covered by GOAL and/or the NRA. If you need the materials and you can't get them for free from GOAL, I'll cover the cost... There is also a Junior Shooter's program given through GOAL. The same guy who does Eddie Eagle (tm) runs that program. I don't know if your children are old enough, but that is also available... and I would be happy to cover any costs to sponsor a kid...

IMNSHO, it's a mistake to try to win a debate with a child when their argument is correct. Sounds like "Mr. Logical" has enough maturity to know the difference. One thing I've learned about kids, is that they can smell BS a mile away... and when they think you're full of it, you lose all credibility. IMO, this causes them to go do the "forbidden" things at a friends house under "who-knows-what" circumstances. (Again, just MHO) I'd rather a kid at least learn about all the forbidden stuff where I could supervise, explain and answer questions in a safe controlled environment before they get exposed to it "willy-nilly"! IYKWIM...

Perfect time to take him (with the proper trainer) and let him see what happens with the real thing. I did this with a friend's seven year old (three years ago), who was super curious about guns. He was actually allowed to shoot a .22lr pistol on his third visit to the range. The first two visits were solely spent on going over gun safety, Eddie Eagle (tm), break-down & assembly, and cleaning the firearm. (All done with complete and close adult supervision!) By the time he was finally allowed to fire a pistol, his respect for the firearm and his manner on the range were as good or better than many adults I know. It took awhile, but he became a decent shot as well.

For better or for worse, the "novelty" of being able to fire a real gun wore off, but the lessons had been learned well... I feel completely confident that I could put a loaded pistol in a room with this kid and have him (and anyone else with him) be completely safe. I even use the term "kid" loosely... he's grown into a very mature young man of ten years old.



[This message has been edited by Panther (edited July 17, 2000).]
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Van Canna
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The Gender Gap on Gun Control Issues

Post by Van Canna »

I am not sure that Panther and I really disagree on this. I realize that is almost impossible to keep a child away from water pistols and the like. Panther makes a point of “good gun handling”! I believe that is the key.

I have had quite a few cases of accidental killings by young people horsing around with guns.
The majority of children who play with toy guns pointing and shooting at each other, water, plastic bullets and the like, never get the type of specialized training in firearms handling we are discussing.

So they develop bad gun handling habits, which unchecked, may come back and haunt them later in life. You get used to point your water gun at someone and squirt him full of water and may associate this “playful gesture” in your adult years while handling an “unloaded” gun unless it has been drilled into you never to even think of such thing.

One litigated case I handled involved a bunch of teenagers getting together for a party, no alcohol, but one of them had taken a revolver out of his father’s house to “show it” to his friends. Sure enough there was lots of interest. They all sat around a table, the bullets were taken out of the gun, and everyone had their turn at pulling the trigger. Soon it was a playful game of pointing the “empty gun” at each other and pulling the trigger while ducking and weaving about, much like they would do with a water gun in the pool.

Then one of them had the bright idea of placing a single bullet in the gun, spinning the cylinder, and playing a modified game of “Russian roulette,” pointing the gun at the TV and pulling the trigger.

One kid, became very nervous, said, “I don’t like what we are doing, I am going home” and tried to leave the room.

The kid with the loaded gun said” Aw, don’t be a chicken,” pointed the gun at his back and pulled the trigger sending a .38 caliber bullet in between his shoulder blades.

The shooter’s argument was he did not mean to shoot the kid, that he was being “playful” just like he would be with a “water gun” in the pool, and that he had made a great error in judgment. An expert for his criminal defense made the same argument, that there was no intent, just negligent handling of a firearm fostered by his childhood experience with toy guns.

The homeowner’s liability policy, refused to provide him with defense and indemnity citing the pertinent exclusion: “ To bodily injury which is either expected or intended from the standpoint of the insured”

The legal argument was that the insured should have expected any resultant injury as an ordinary reasonably prudent person might anticipate such injury to result from this act.

This is only one of the dozens of cases involving the careless pointing of firearms in a playful manner because of alleged childhood experience with toy guns.

Another recent one involved a 13-year-old kid fire a BB gun into the head of a schoolmate visiting his home. The defense? = “ I was just going to squirt him like with a water gun, I am so sorry”!

Are we sure our children are being indoctrinated properly as to gun handling safety?
Look at a toy gun as a “gun” first, and as a “toy” next!




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Van Canna
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Panther
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The Gender Gap on Gun Control Issues

Post by Panther »

IMNSHO, if in any of the cases Canna-sempai discusses, the child had been previously trained in the proper handling of a real firearm and the child had actually seen the effects of a real firearm's discharge... there wouldn't be any discussion of the cases!

My point being that I am very disturbed by the misguided attempts of most parents to keep their kids from learning about guns or having contact with guns in any way. This is a great disservice to these kids.

We wouldn't dream of sending a kid to a pool-party if they didn't know how to swim. Fortunately, we generally know when the children are going to be around water and can protect them until they get the proper training and learn how to swim. The same is true for guns, however you never know when your child will come across the gun that was ditched by a running thief or lost/dropped/stolen and left as a hazard for young inquisitive minds. I've had this conversation too many times with parents who have the attitude that "I never want my child to have anything to do with awful, evil guns! It's for the chiiiiildren! If it saves just one life!"

For what it's worth... more kids die from drowning each year than guns, so we need to do a better job of teaching them how to swim as well as the realities of guns.
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RACastanet
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The Gender Gap on Gun Control Issues

Post by RACastanet »

Hi all. I likewise am not in complete agreement with Van. Some competitive play like cops and robbers can be a good outlet of energy for the kids. By the time I had my own children virtually all toy guns came in bright colors to distinguish them from real weapons. I always made it clear, though, that pointing a gun at someone, toy or not, was serious business.

For whatever reason, things have worked out well here. Firearms have little or no novelty value in this house. My son and daughter relate to them as they would a drill or lawnmower.

To Lori: On Wednesday my daughter and her friend Michael are going to the range with me. I made sure it was ok with his dad, who it turns out is also a stste trooper. His dad is thrilled and is going to send him over with a service revolver to use! He'd join us if he were not on duty. Interesting coincidence. I'm pleased with his reaction as well.

As guns are so pervasive in our society, rather than hide from them I believe it is better to educate and train our kids in the proper handling of them.

Rich
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Van Canna
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Post by Van Canna »

I will stand by my opinion [reinforced by actual accidental shooting cases I have worked] that if you are going to allow your child to indulge in gun play, you should parallel that with serious gun safety training so he can program to understand the serious ramifications of stupid gun handling from an early age.

As I said, most children who engage in gun play with toy guns, never receive gun safety training, and remain programmed with dangerous habits.

When I trained my son at an early age about the deadliness of firearms and the safe handling of such deadly instruments, he seemed to lose all interest in toy guns, and gun play. His newfound respect of real firearms seemed to carry to toy guns as well! And that made me very happy!


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Van Canna
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Panther
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The Gender Gap on Gun Control Issues

Post by Panther »

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Van Canna:
I will stand by my opinion (reinforced by actual accidental shooting cases I have worked) that if you are going to allow your child to indulge in gun play, you should parallel that with serious gun safety training so he can program to understand the serious ramifications of stupid gun handling from an early age.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I completely agree... Glad you "stuck by your guns" ( Ouch, did I write that? Image )! You are correct that we really do not disagree... (Oops, and a double negative to boot!) I just said the same thing backwards.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
When I trained my son at an early age about the deadliness of firearms and the safe handling of such deadly instruments, he seemed to lose all interest in toy guns, and gun play. His newfound respect of real firearms seemed to carry to toy guns as well! And that made me very happy!
Excellent! Image

Rich-san,

I hope your daughter's friend is over 21 and has an LTC (if you live in the People's Supreme Democratic Republic of Massachusetts, or the equivalent license for your state)... Otherwise, I'm quite certain that you misunderstood and that no LEO would commit the felony offense of supplying a handgun to an unlicensed individual as you state... I'm sure that was just a mis-communication... Image Wouldn't want any of you to get arrested and have to face the court battle with a possible 20 year all expenses-paid trip to Club Fed!

Lori-san,

The offer remains open...




[This message has been edited by Panther (edited July 18, 2000).]
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