1] A knife is basically an assassination weapon: lethal but without any stopping power! To stop someone by stabbing you would need to stab twenty to thirty times!
2] Knife armed resisters are six times more likely to be injured than gun-armed resisters, and about twice as likely to suffer injury as victims who do nothing!
3] So you buy a gun and you train with it, and you attend a good school on the judicious application of deadly force! But do you really think you could point the gun at someone and pull the trigger? Have you ever been in touch with a feeling like that?
4] Pointing a gun at someone about to hurt you real bad and not being able to pull the trigger will get you killed!
5] “ The universal judgment that there is no social interest in preserving the lives of the aggressors at the cost of those of their victims “ {Herbert Wechsler__ legal analyst extraordinaire} ---on the privilege of killing in self-defense!
6] what will it take for women to really get serious about self defense? Fear of crime is twice as high for women as for men!
“ Women have been slapped, choked, kicked, punched, scratched, beaten, and hit with objects before being raped and killed. They have been pushed down the stairs, thrown against walls, knocked off chairs, and dragged out of bed. They have had knives, ice picks, bats, belts, and guns showed in their faces and up their private parts before the trigger was pulled. They have endured cigarette burns on arms, lacerations on scalps, and knife wounds on breasts. They have suffered bruises and broken limbs, at one time or another they have lost blood, hair, dignity, and a sense of hope.
7] Even tall women, [over six feet five inches] are more fearful than short men [under five feet four inches] __Prof. Paul Lavrakas, Northwestern University!
8] the great majority of women fear guns.
9] Women can be deceived by commercially learned confidence handed out by unqualified martial arts instructors, and that false self confidence will get them killed in hand to hand combat! Without explosive power and “killer” mindset, a woman can kick a man in the groin, poke him in the eye, or break his finger, and not necessarily incapacitate him! He could get angrier and trigger a burglar or rapist into a killer!
References: “ Armed and female” by Paxton Quigley__
------------------
Van Canna
ARMED AND FEMALE
Moderator: Available
ARMED AND FEMALE
Sobering post. Number three especially important. If you pick a weapon, learn to use it, know your targets, and know you are willing to use it.
There are no quarantees to the final outcome in a "survival situation". Yet, you can resolve and guarantee to yourself that you will fight to the end, regardless of the outcome.
david
There are no quarantees to the final outcome in a "survival situation". Yet, you can resolve and guarantee to yourself that you will fight to the end, regardless of the outcome.
david
ARMED AND FEMALE
Paxton Quigley who wrote “ Armed and female,” interviewed inmates serving jail time in San Quentin for having sexually assaulted and defiled women!
Here is something interesting: “ The inmates advise women to use the foulest language when confronting an assailant. “ These guys are all used to hear bad talk. We have been talking bad all our lives. We don’t know any other way to talk, so if they don’t hear bad talk they don’t understand. And you have got to yell it. We have been yelled at all our lives, too__ cops, mothers, jail guards, and tough guys all yell. You got to yell, they’ll listen”
If a burglar finds someone in the house, he will not only panic, but if that person is a woman she will probably get sexually abused just because the criminal doesn’t know what else to do to control the fear and excitement!
One rapist said that the woman “ he claimed” for raping was a nurse returning home from a night shift at the hospital! He thought that she should not have been showing so much bare chest in her white nurse’s uniform. He “ taught” her a lesson!
More interesting: The lethal force trainers in police work see that karate may not offer meaningful protection to many women! Can you put a 105 pounds woman on a par with a 260 pounds rapist?
Then this from Mas Ayoob “ An unarmed woman threatened with physical assault responds largely from fear. A danger she is ill prepared to cope with has two results: it clouds her thinking with fear, even panic, and it provokes her to extremes to ensure her own survival. One who is armed is not above fear but experiences it to a lesser degree. The knowledge that she is prepared to cope with and survive the worst, relieves her mind of the heaviest fear, and lets her turn her full mental powers toward a non-violent escape from the situation”
Any thoughts on these concepts from you women out there, just lurking and content to be a stick in the mud??~ * Smile* ---I guess, once a wallflower, always one, right??
Just kidding!!
------------------
Van Canna
Here is something interesting: “ The inmates advise women to use the foulest language when confronting an assailant. “ These guys are all used to hear bad talk. We have been talking bad all our lives. We don’t know any other way to talk, so if they don’t hear bad talk they don’t understand. And you have got to yell it. We have been yelled at all our lives, too__ cops, mothers, jail guards, and tough guys all yell. You got to yell, they’ll listen”
If a burglar finds someone in the house, he will not only panic, but if that person is a woman she will probably get sexually abused just because the criminal doesn’t know what else to do to control the fear and excitement!
One rapist said that the woman “ he claimed” for raping was a nurse returning home from a night shift at the hospital! He thought that she should not have been showing so much bare chest in her white nurse’s uniform. He “ taught” her a lesson!
More interesting: The lethal force trainers in police work see that karate may not offer meaningful protection to many women! Can you put a 105 pounds woman on a par with a 260 pounds rapist?
Then this from Mas Ayoob “ An unarmed woman threatened with physical assault responds largely from fear. A danger she is ill prepared to cope with has two results: it clouds her thinking with fear, even panic, and it provokes her to extremes to ensure her own survival. One who is armed is not above fear but experiences it to a lesser degree. The knowledge that she is prepared to cope with and survive the worst, relieves her mind of the heaviest fear, and lets her turn her full mental powers toward a non-violent escape from the situation”
Any thoughts on these concepts from you women out there, just lurking and content to be a stick in the mud??~ * Smile* ---I guess, once a wallflower, always one, right??
Just kidding!!
------------------
Van Canna
ARMED AND FEMALE
Van-Sensei - I read your post and two things struck me...One, is there an answer to the points you raise? And two, I have never thought of myself as a victim. I am a firm believer that if you give off an aura of fear it can be sensed by an agressor. I try not to find myself in situations where that may happen, I know how to fire a gun although I don't own one, I have taken self-defence courses, I can try to talk myself out of situations - heck, even run away (I don't think there is any shame in that), I study martial arts, I stay alert, attentaive and aware and basically pay attention to my "sixth sense".
A few years ago a woman in my apartment building was being beaten up by her ex. I went out to see if she and her two children were alright (unfortunately after he had left the scene) and I was beyond anger that this had happened. As we stood in the hallway, my back turned away, he came back around the corner after us - the sixth sense kicked into high gear and the hair on the back of my neck was upright before I even heard him coming. As we ducked into an open apartment and locked the door I cursed myself the whole time that my metal Louisville Slugger was in the closet with my apartment door wide open. I wanted nothing more in the world to step outside and clock this jerk with a grand slam BUT I knew that his rage was beyond my anger. It took a few cops to subdue this guy and when I look back I realize it would have been absolutely foolish for me to attempt to do anything to him. I think I did the right thing in making sure the victims were alright but I seethed for days after the incident and made a resolution that something like that would never happen to me.
Now I don't know that I would ever use a weapon (seems all too easily turned on the the user!!) So what do you do?
------------------
A few years ago a woman in my apartment building was being beaten up by her ex. I went out to see if she and her two children were alright (unfortunately after he had left the scene) and I was beyond anger that this had happened. As we stood in the hallway, my back turned away, he came back around the corner after us - the sixth sense kicked into high gear and the hair on the back of my neck was upright before I even heard him coming. As we ducked into an open apartment and locked the door I cursed myself the whole time that my metal Louisville Slugger was in the closet with my apartment door wide open. I wanted nothing more in the world to step outside and clock this jerk with a grand slam BUT I knew that his rage was beyond my anger. It took a few cops to subdue this guy and when I look back I realize it would have been absolutely foolish for me to attempt to do anything to him. I think I did the right thing in making sure the victims were alright but I seethed for days after the incident and made a resolution that something like that would never happen to me.
Now I don't know that I would ever use a weapon (seems all too easily turned on the the user!!) So what do you do?
------------------
ARMED AND FEMALE
My my Van-san - I am honored that you grace my page not once but twice! Far be it from lurking - I was composing my response to your thought-provoking post when you beat me to the punch so to speak - you must have shaken the dust off that Mavis Beacon program! Now I have to start all over!
Had a few thoughts about the points you raise in the first post...
As for a knife not having stopping power - kind of a scary thought - I had heard once from someone who had been cut and shot - that he preferred being shot (small caliber of course) because the pain was worse from a blade - I'm interested in more about this point - could you elaborate on this one?
As for knife-armed resistors being more likely to be injured themselves - that makes sense - especially if not trained in the use of the blade.
As for pointing a gun and the ability to shoot - thankfully I've not had my life threatened in those circumstances - and hopefully I never will - but without a doubt - I know that the "mother-bear" instinct would allow me that action should either of my children be in danger. As for myself - a question we often discuss in my self-defense classes - one I don't have an easy answer to. Which makes number four a scary point!
What will it take for women to get serious about self-defense? Another tough one! Again we've discussed this one in self-defense classes and the sad fact is that most get serious AFTER surviving an attack of some sort! I've heard the positive model that Switzerland has as far as gun ownership - low violent crime and low incidence of accidents - where do women factor in on that one? Does anyone have any statistics of that kind? Maybe we could learn from them.
Women naturally fearing attack more than men seems to be programmed in - can it be programmed out? You are the mindset expert - you tell us!
(Please?)
As for the majority of women fearing guns - I'm glad I'm in the minority there - again maybe we can take a lesson from the Swiss if that applies. What about that point brought up in the "Passion" thread about women being attracted/aroused by guns? Is this just to have the strong male image intensified? And what does it do to our own sense of femininity when becoming well acquainted with a gun? Anyone?
And the last point - ineffective so-called "self-defense" moves - the issue that these may make the agressor angrier and more violent is another that we discuss in class - but is it not better to do something than nothing? Statistics also show that fighting back will often deter a rape or other violent assault upon a woman. (Predators look for victims - not adversaries.) If she does not have a gun for whatever reason - better she fights with what she's got!
Well - there's my "lurking" two cents so far - I've got another thought along those lines but I'll save it for another thread.
Thanks for the thought-provoking discussion! Looking forward to more!
Peace,
Lori
Had a few thoughts about the points you raise in the first post...
As for a knife not having stopping power - kind of a scary thought - I had heard once from someone who had been cut and shot - that he preferred being shot (small caliber of course) because the pain was worse from a blade - I'm interested in more about this point - could you elaborate on this one?
As for knife-armed resistors being more likely to be injured themselves - that makes sense - especially if not trained in the use of the blade.
As for pointing a gun and the ability to shoot - thankfully I've not had my life threatened in those circumstances - and hopefully I never will - but without a doubt - I know that the "mother-bear" instinct would allow me that action should either of my children be in danger. As for myself - a question we often discuss in my self-defense classes - one I don't have an easy answer to. Which makes number four a scary point!
What will it take for women to get serious about self-defense? Another tough one! Again we've discussed this one in self-defense classes and the sad fact is that most get serious AFTER surviving an attack of some sort! I've heard the positive model that Switzerland has as far as gun ownership - low violent crime and low incidence of accidents - where do women factor in on that one? Does anyone have any statistics of that kind? Maybe we could learn from them.
Women naturally fearing attack more than men seems to be programmed in - can it be programmed out? You are the mindset expert - you tell us!
(Please?)
As for the majority of women fearing guns - I'm glad I'm in the minority there - again maybe we can take a lesson from the Swiss if that applies. What about that point brought up in the "Passion" thread about women being attracted/aroused by guns? Is this just to have the strong male image intensified? And what does it do to our own sense of femininity when becoming well acquainted with a gun? Anyone?
And the last point - ineffective so-called "self-defense" moves - the issue that these may make the agressor angrier and more violent is another that we discuss in class - but is it not better to do something than nothing? Statistics also show that fighting back will often deter a rape or other violent assault upon a woman. (Predators look for victims - not adversaries.) If she does not have a gun for whatever reason - better she fights with what she's got!
Well - there's my "lurking" two cents so far - I've got another thought along those lines but I'll save it for another thread.
Thanks for the thought-provoking discussion! Looking forward to more!
Peace,
Lori
ARMED AND FEMALE
Hi Mary - and welcome to the forum. I'm glad someone else is asking for some answers - our enigmatic master of mindset is wonderful at raising these questions isn't he?
I believe that your hesitance in engaging in the battle outside your apartment was a wise act of self-preservation - but the anger you felt about it is very real - that is a difficult situation that you have got to deal with as it comes - I've faced a couple - and have made different decisions each time - there is no set solution. You have to rely on your inner signals and the "gift of fear" that DeBecker speaks of in his book - (if you haven't read it yet - do it soon!). One time I just withdrew and called 911 (no children involved) and another time I jumped on a guys back and tried to choke hime so his victim could scramble away - not a wise move - I could have been seriously hurt and thankfully only suffered some bruised ribs. It could have been much much worse if there hadn't been some intervention at that point - (he outweighed me by a good 100+ lbs) - and even more thankfully there were no weapons involved. I don't know what caused me to act vs. what caused me to withdraw in each situation - but I have to believe that some inner signals were telling me what was best at the time - as each of us must do. One thing that is a determinant for me acting is the presence of children - as I mentioned above. But again - you have to evaluate the threat to your own life - what good are you to others if you are dead?
In the situation you described - I believe you did the right thing - the victims were ok - and you were out of harm's way for the moment - what good would it have done to go out and risk things getting worse? Hopefully she pressed charges and got him off the street for a while.
A co-worker of mine was not so lucky! Her ex came back and shot her (and himself) with a .357!
Scary thoughts in scary times! I also believe that there is no shame in talking your way out - or running away - martial arts has taught me that the best block in the world is to not be there - a good technique to practice!
Thanks for participating Mary!
Peace,
Lori
I believe that your hesitance in engaging in the battle outside your apartment was a wise act of self-preservation - but the anger you felt about it is very real - that is a difficult situation that you have got to deal with as it comes - I've faced a couple - and have made different decisions each time - there is no set solution. You have to rely on your inner signals and the "gift of fear" that DeBecker speaks of in his book - (if you haven't read it yet - do it soon!). One time I just withdrew and called 911 (no children involved) and another time I jumped on a guys back and tried to choke hime so his victim could scramble away - not a wise move - I could have been seriously hurt and thankfully only suffered some bruised ribs. It could have been much much worse if there hadn't been some intervention at that point - (he outweighed me by a good 100+ lbs) - and even more thankfully there were no weapons involved. I don't know what caused me to act vs. what caused me to withdraw in each situation - but I have to believe that some inner signals were telling me what was best at the time - as each of us must do. One thing that is a determinant for me acting is the presence of children - as I mentioned above. But again - you have to evaluate the threat to your own life - what good are you to others if you are dead?
In the situation you described - I believe you did the right thing - the victims were ok - and you were out of harm's way for the moment - what good would it have done to go out and risk things getting worse? Hopefully she pressed charges and got him off the street for a while.
A co-worker of mine was not so lucky! Her ex came back and shot her (and himself) with a .357!
Scary thoughts in scary times! I also believe that there is no shame in talking your way out - or running away - martial arts has taught me that the best block in the world is to not be there - a good technique to practice!
Thanks for participating Mary!
Peace,
Lori
ARMED AND FEMALE
Answer to the points?
I am not sure about the answers, but both Paxton Quigley and Mas Ayoob are of the opinion that given women’s vulnerabilities [see Rich Castanet’s post], the modern American woman who is serious about self defense [most are not] would do well to include a firearm in her studies of the force continuum of which martial arts is only a mediocre component!
Ayoob feels that the gun is the ultimate degree in personal, physical power, giving a woman an edge that improves her chances in more ways than one!
But Paxton, Mas, and The noted John Farnam, whom I studied under, are also quick to point out that not all women [and men] are emotionally stable to pack a gun! “It also depends on the willingness of the woman to acquire the necessary training, and her own ability to make that crucial decision to shoot if it ever needs to be made” [Paxton]
There are no easy answers! Martial arts are much overrated for today’s brand of defensive needs and women in particular need to be extremely well rounded in the force continuum concept and extreme mindset!
Women are different! For Example, researcher Zimring reports that women, contrary to men,
Consider burglary of their homes as a gross invasion of personal privacy that produces high levels of fear and insult. The emotional impact of crime is greater upon women than men!
Regardless of what pain tolerance is or is not there to a knifing, when you knife someone you cannot think in terms of “stopping “ him as reliably as shooting him center mass with a serious caliber handgun!
Women fearing attacks more than men is a gender thing and extremely difficult to program out!
Guns and femininity? Dr Ann Turkel, clinical professor of psychiatry states, “ Men did not become wimps because they learned how to diaper babies. I don’t think women have to sacrifice their femininity if they learn to shoot a gun” Female ownership of handguns is increasing dramatically and this will be an important part of our culture for generations!
Fighting back is certainly the thing to do! But it depends on how you fight! In many cases resisting or fighting back without conviction, women dig their own graves!
References: " Armed and Female" By Paxton Quigley!
------------------
Van Canna
[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited 10-03-99).]
I am not sure about the answers, but both Paxton Quigley and Mas Ayoob are of the opinion that given women’s vulnerabilities [see Rich Castanet’s post], the modern American woman who is serious about self defense [most are not] would do well to include a firearm in her studies of the force continuum of which martial arts is only a mediocre component!
Ayoob feels that the gun is the ultimate degree in personal, physical power, giving a woman an edge that improves her chances in more ways than one!
But Paxton, Mas, and The noted John Farnam, whom I studied under, are also quick to point out that not all women [and men] are emotionally stable to pack a gun! “It also depends on the willingness of the woman to acquire the necessary training, and her own ability to make that crucial decision to shoot if it ever needs to be made” [Paxton]
There are no easy answers! Martial arts are much overrated for today’s brand of defensive needs and women in particular need to be extremely well rounded in the force continuum concept and extreme mindset!
Women are different! For Example, researcher Zimring reports that women, contrary to men,
Consider burglary of their homes as a gross invasion of personal privacy that produces high levels of fear and insult. The emotional impact of crime is greater upon women than men!
Regardless of what pain tolerance is or is not there to a knifing, when you knife someone you cannot think in terms of “stopping “ him as reliably as shooting him center mass with a serious caliber handgun!
Women fearing attacks more than men is a gender thing and extremely difficult to program out!
Guns and femininity? Dr Ann Turkel, clinical professor of psychiatry states, “ Men did not become wimps because they learned how to diaper babies. I don’t think women have to sacrifice their femininity if they learn to shoot a gun” Female ownership of handguns is increasing dramatically and this will be an important part of our culture for generations!
Fighting back is certainly the thing to do! But it depends on how you fight! In many cases resisting or fighting back without conviction, women dig their own graves!
References: " Armed and Female" By Paxton Quigley!
------------------
Van Canna
[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited 10-03-99).]
ARMED AND FEMALE
I was in the middle of a bloody brilliant disoration on this topic and I crashed - boy, if I had a gun right now... no, actually I will try to reconstruct what I had written and apologize for the length in advance.
First of all, Lori, thanks for the welcome to your forum, I find this topic fascinating and feel I must respond to you and the “master of mindset” one more time (at least) :-)
I must raise the following points:
1. It terrifies me to think we live in a society where the thought process has become “I can out-caliber you”. We hear shocking stories of children bringing firearms to schools when, in fact, most adults are not capable of handling guns in a responsible manner - what it boils down to is - where do children learn these things? I was brought up in an environment with firearms (my father was in law enforcement) but I was taught to handle them responsibly and with a healthy respect - the bottom line is that once that bullet leaves the chamber, you can’t bring it back.
2. I cannot imagine “packing heat” 24 hours a day. For me personally, that would be like saying I am a victim waiting for an incident to happen.
3. Yes, I believe in the circumstances involving the attack I did the right thing. Who knows now with some martial arts training and self defence behind me if the situation would be different next time around...I would hope so, but the fact is, the victim survived, her children survived, I survived and the scum was charged with assault. We got to live another day.
4. Finally, Van-Sensei - reluctantly, I agree with you that women fearing attacks more than men is a gender thing (very reluctantly though...) Perhaps men just need to get in touch with their feminine sides :-) and then we would have a truly Utopian world. I think it unfortunate that women are programmed by society to accept submissive roles. I have found studying martial arts under an excellent instructor has helped to de-program that mindset - my sensei has never once made me think I can’t do something because I am a woman (actually come to think of it, I don’t think anyone has). As a result I don’t think of myself as a female in a male-dominated arena...rather I think of myself simply as a student.
If I hadn’t crashed this would have been a whole lot better!!!
------------------
First of all, Lori, thanks for the welcome to your forum, I find this topic fascinating and feel I must respond to you and the “master of mindset” one more time (at least) :-)
I must raise the following points:
1. It terrifies me to think we live in a society where the thought process has become “I can out-caliber you”. We hear shocking stories of children bringing firearms to schools when, in fact, most adults are not capable of handling guns in a responsible manner - what it boils down to is - where do children learn these things? I was brought up in an environment with firearms (my father was in law enforcement) but I was taught to handle them responsibly and with a healthy respect - the bottom line is that once that bullet leaves the chamber, you can’t bring it back.
2. I cannot imagine “packing heat” 24 hours a day. For me personally, that would be like saying I am a victim waiting for an incident to happen.
3. Yes, I believe in the circumstances involving the attack I did the right thing. Who knows now with some martial arts training and self defence behind me if the situation would be different next time around...I would hope so, but the fact is, the victim survived, her children survived, I survived and the scum was charged with assault. We got to live another day.
4. Finally, Van-Sensei - reluctantly, I agree with you that women fearing attacks more than men is a gender thing (very reluctantly though...) Perhaps men just need to get in touch with their feminine sides :-) and then we would have a truly Utopian world. I think it unfortunate that women are programmed by society to accept submissive roles. I have found studying martial arts under an excellent instructor has helped to de-program that mindset - my sensei has never once made me think I can’t do something because I am a woman (actually come to think of it, I don’t think anyone has). As a result I don’t think of myself as a female in a male-dominated arena...rather I think of myself simply as a student.
If I hadn’t crashed this would have been a whole lot better!!!
------------------
-
Shelly King
ARMED AND FEMALE
Van Canna, Lori, Mary, lurkers
Could I pull the trigger if I had to? You bet! The odds of me having my gun with me however are pretty slim. I live in Missouri, concealed weapons are NOT legal. Of course, there are times when I know where I'm going and I go ahead and carry, but normally it isn't practical. Once I was stopped by a state trooper and did have my gun in my purse...with my drivers liscense. Luckily he didn't notice it (good thing I wasn't a bad guy). It is sad the bad wrap guns are taking because of the lack of responsibility being taken by parents who own guns. I grew up in a house of guns, the cabinet was locked but we knew where the keys were. We were taught from the beginning the power and responsibility of having guns. It never even occurred to us to take a gun and play with it or remove it from the house. Am I as proficient in handguns as I want or need to be? NO! There is alot I still need to learn, but like most women, I think, we don't know where to go. I am however beginning to pick up a trace of Sanchin in my shooting stance. Most interesting.
So if I can't deter them with a gun, all I have left is my MA training...
The dangers of a false sense of security...Would I try to do the stuff I'm learning now on an assailant. Heck No! In a few years, perhaps. I do however practice alot on the general self-defense techniques. They are simple and easy to do and effective without alot of skill.
So that leaves mindset...I have stated my arguement about the use of the word "victim" so I won't go into that again. So let me talk on "survival" for a moment..."survival" doesn't necessarily mean escaping without getting hurt or even repelling the attack. Those who weren't so lucky against an attack can still survive and function. I can't think of the study, but it showed that of those who were physically assaulted, the ones that fought back during, showed a quicker recovery time (mentally) than those who didn't.
Boy, oh boy, how I do go on...
women find guns arousing, because of the increased testosterone levels developed during the thought of a fight or so I read someplace.
------------------
Shelly
Could I pull the trigger if I had to? You bet! The odds of me having my gun with me however are pretty slim. I live in Missouri, concealed weapons are NOT legal. Of course, there are times when I know where I'm going and I go ahead and carry, but normally it isn't practical. Once I was stopped by a state trooper and did have my gun in my purse...with my drivers liscense. Luckily he didn't notice it (good thing I wasn't a bad guy). It is sad the bad wrap guns are taking because of the lack of responsibility being taken by parents who own guns. I grew up in a house of guns, the cabinet was locked but we knew where the keys were. We were taught from the beginning the power and responsibility of having guns. It never even occurred to us to take a gun and play with it or remove it from the house. Am I as proficient in handguns as I want or need to be? NO! There is alot I still need to learn, but like most women, I think, we don't know where to go. I am however beginning to pick up a trace of Sanchin in my shooting stance. Most interesting.
So if I can't deter them with a gun, all I have left is my MA training...
The dangers of a false sense of security...Would I try to do the stuff I'm learning now on an assailant. Heck No! In a few years, perhaps. I do however practice alot on the general self-defense techniques. They are simple and easy to do and effective without alot of skill.
So that leaves mindset...I have stated my arguement about the use of the word "victim" so I won't go into that again. So let me talk on "survival" for a moment..."survival" doesn't necessarily mean escaping without getting hurt or even repelling the attack. Those who weren't so lucky against an attack can still survive and function. I can't think of the study, but it showed that of those who were physically assaulted, the ones that fought back during, showed a quicker recovery time (mentally) than those who didn't.
Boy, oh boy, how I do go on...
women find guns arousing, because of the increased testosterone levels developed during the thought of a fight or so I read someplace.
------------------
Shelly
ARMED AND FEMALE
Shelly - Being a Canadian (we are a most peaceful people, you know) the thought of carrying a weapon is something I simply find hard to justify. I must ask the question - why conceal?
“So if I can't deter them with a gun, all I have left is my MA training...” I’m not so sure about that...are you telling me you can’t fight (or run) unless you have martial arts training? There are several things you can do - scream, fight tooth and nail, run, try to avoid situations where you run the danger of being assaulted but if those situations exist - stay on high alert...and come to think of it, why wouldn't you use what you have learned to date on an assailant...in the extreme situation you should use anything and everything no?
“I do however practice alot on the general self-defense techniques. They are simple and easy to do and effective without alot of skill.” Good for you...it is unfortunate that so many women don’t. I was surprised at my first self-defence course that I could actually hit. I had never hit anything (hard) before and I enjoyed it.
“...women find guns arousing, because of the increased testosterone levels developed during the thought of a fight or so I read someplace” What the heck have you been reading? (Sure it was just testosterone - not estrogen?)
------------------
“So if I can't deter them with a gun, all I have left is my MA training...” I’m not so sure about that...are you telling me you can’t fight (or run) unless you have martial arts training? There are several things you can do - scream, fight tooth and nail, run, try to avoid situations where you run the danger of being assaulted but if those situations exist - stay on high alert...and come to think of it, why wouldn't you use what you have learned to date on an assailant...in the extreme situation you should use anything and everything no?
“I do however practice alot on the general self-defense techniques. They are simple and easy to do and effective without alot of skill.” Good for you...it is unfortunate that so many women don’t. I was surprised at my first self-defence course that I could actually hit. I had never hit anything (hard) before and I enjoyed it.
“...women find guns arousing, because of the increased testosterone levels developed during the thought of a fight or so I read someplace” What the heck have you been reading? (Sure it was just testosterone - not estrogen?)
------------------
-
Shelly King
ARMED AND FEMALE
Mary
allow me to correct myself...I include the screaming, scratching, biting, running, awareness, etc. as part of my training, so to speak. I have been granted with an amazing 6th sense and use it accordingly. Funny thing happened at my test, luckily I didn't have to demonstrate any of the self defense stuff, but the sensei directing the test said he didn't want to see any techniques demonstrated that didn't have a follow-up counter attack. I kept thinking, "oh s***, my follow up technique is to run. How am I suppose to show that?" But he had an excellent point, I am not a good/fast runner, so unless I'm being attacked by an overweight, out-of-shape bad guy, I had better plan a little further ahead. As far as using what I'm learning, I've learned so far I can't effectively block 100% of the time a stronger, experienced fighter. In a real situation, I'm going to let the primal brain kick in and do what it knows it will take to survive. I'm not going to think, "hum, I'll try a circle block and backfist to the nose".
Interesting story comes to mind from last week. Last Wednesday during class, we did some sparring, I got paired up with a somewhat new student who use to study TKD, needless to say she had a pretty good round kick. Thursday, I'm nursing a pretty good bruise on my thigh, (yeah, I know...should have blocked), I'm talking to a co-worker who also use to train in TKD about the class. One of the guys(a throw back from the dark ages), is walking by and stops to listen when I talked about getting kicked and the bruise, but that it was OK, I'm sure she had a couple this morning too. I know, I'm horrible but afterall it was her last class. So anyway, the point of this story is he said, "Why do you girls fight? I thought you were taking a self-defense class. Aren't you suppose to blow a whistle or something and run away?" I politely explained that chances are in the real world, I probably couldn't just run away. He then said, "Well as long as you girls are only fighting each other it shouldn't be too dangerous." I then again politely informed him, that usually I spar with the guys and I actually prefer it that way. He couldn't believe that the men were allowed to try to hit us girls during class. "I can't believe your husband allows you to do this! What does he say when you come home all bruised?" Well, again politely, I tell him my husband attends the same class and tells me the same thing my sensei does, "Should've blocked!"
------------------
Shelly
[This message has been edited by Shelly King (edited 10-04-99).]
allow me to correct myself...I include the screaming, scratching, biting, running, awareness, etc. as part of my training, so to speak. I have been granted with an amazing 6th sense and use it accordingly. Funny thing happened at my test, luckily I didn't have to demonstrate any of the self defense stuff, but the sensei directing the test said he didn't want to see any techniques demonstrated that didn't have a follow-up counter attack. I kept thinking, "oh s***, my follow up technique is to run. How am I suppose to show that?" But he had an excellent point, I am not a good/fast runner, so unless I'm being attacked by an overweight, out-of-shape bad guy, I had better plan a little further ahead. As far as using what I'm learning, I've learned so far I can't effectively block 100% of the time a stronger, experienced fighter. In a real situation, I'm going to let the primal brain kick in and do what it knows it will take to survive. I'm not going to think, "hum, I'll try a circle block and backfist to the nose".
Interesting story comes to mind from last week. Last Wednesday during class, we did some sparring, I got paired up with a somewhat new student who use to study TKD, needless to say she had a pretty good round kick. Thursday, I'm nursing a pretty good bruise on my thigh, (yeah, I know...should have blocked), I'm talking to a co-worker who also use to train in TKD about the class. One of the guys(a throw back from the dark ages), is walking by and stops to listen when I talked about getting kicked and the bruise, but that it was OK, I'm sure she had a couple this morning too. I know, I'm horrible but afterall it was her last class. So anyway, the point of this story is he said, "Why do you girls fight? I thought you were taking a self-defense class. Aren't you suppose to blow a whistle or something and run away?" I politely explained that chances are in the real world, I probably couldn't just run away. He then said, "Well as long as you girls are only fighting each other it shouldn't be too dangerous." I then again politely informed him, that usually I spar with the guys and I actually prefer it that way. He couldn't believe that the men were allowed to try to hit us girls during class. "I can't believe your husband allows you to do this! What does he say when you come home all bruised?" Well, again politely, I tell him my husband attends the same class and tells me the same thing my sensei does, "Should've blocked!"
------------------
Shelly
[This message has been edited by Shelly King (edited 10-04-99).]
ARMED AND FEMALE
Strangely enough, testosterone (the "male" hormone) is the major steroid responsible for sex drive in both men and women. Estrogen is converted to testosterone in fat and the adrenal glands, and is the necessary drug for sex drive.[Love that chemical cocktail]......
It has been written that women view guns as phallic symbols belonging in the men’s domain
And that also seems to change estrogen into testosterone! *Ouch*
There was a segment on Dateline about two months ago about a woman using testosterone to help her sex drive. It seemed that she used a cream that she claimed worked right away!
Hmm, maybe handling guns would be cheaper! * Smile * and run out to get a .44 magnum!
------------------
Van Canna
[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited 10-04-99).]
It has been written that women view guns as phallic symbols belonging in the men’s domain
And that also seems to change estrogen into testosterone! *Ouch*
There was a segment on Dateline about two months ago about a woman using testosterone to help her sex drive. It seemed that she used a cream that she claimed worked right away!
Hmm, maybe handling guns would be cheaper! * Smile * and run out to get a .44 magnum!
------------------
Van Canna
[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited 10-04-99).]
ARMED AND FEMALE
Yikes! Our Master of Mindset pushes a few more buttons with his scintillating details...
(The DEPTH of this man!)
Guns and sex? I'm not going to go there!
But feel free to jump on in...
Regarding your previous post Van-san, the fact that there are no easy answers to some of these questions is frustrating! A woman serious about self-defense should carry a gun - ok - the statistics show this. But how do we measure emotional maturity of those wishing to carry - male or female? That women may be more frightened of firearms - or aroused by them - may be a "gender thing" but it is this gender thing that causes women to be the subject of more attacks in the first place! It's another of those damn paradoxes!
Back to being cut vs. shot for stopping power - wouldn't a frantic stab to the throat have as much stopping power as an emotionally distraught potential victim trying to aim and pull the trigger on a gun? Not to mention getting it out of her purse, or glove compartment, or where-ever it is. A sailmaker's tool looks like it would have some stopping power regardless of where it is placed... have you seen those nasty things?
I wonder about the legality of carrying those - they are not a blade - but pretty damn lethal in my book. I would like one on my keychain.
Being armed at all times is a sad commentary on society - but this is a violent world - and the strong will prevail. So how best to legally, safely, and effectively arm ourselves? Most tear gas is a joke - women carrying those things on a key chain almost seem to be advertising their fear. A concealed firearm involves training and permits - and accessiblity is always an issue. And, I think an important question needs to be addressed: what about relying on the weapon so much that when it is taken away you feel completely naked and defenseless - to the point of becoming even more of a victim? Should we not focus on environment weapons? As both Shelly and Mary touch on, shouldn't we mindset to do anything possible with anything available? (Including our "empty hand")
Mary - you are more than welcome! Please keep contributing - your comments add much to the discussion. I like the points you raise. Oh and by the way - I've been there too! I HATE it when a post fries before it gets on the forum - only happens on the really well-written ones! These days I use notepad and save, then cut and paste before posting something I'm spending time and effort on...
Lots of good discussion going on here - thanks for participating.
As for the lurkers - please feel free to add your thoughts - they are welcome. As for any flaming - there is a "no-nonsense" policy on this forum - all who have something to contribute are welcome (even points contrary to mine!) - I will not hesitate to delete anything that is insulting or objectionable to this site or to any of our contributors. This is a safe place to post - so go ahead - hit the "submit" button.
Peace,
Lori
(The DEPTH of this man!)
Guns and sex? I'm not going to go there!
But feel free to jump on in...
Regarding your previous post Van-san, the fact that there are no easy answers to some of these questions is frustrating! A woman serious about self-defense should carry a gun - ok - the statistics show this. But how do we measure emotional maturity of those wishing to carry - male or female? That women may be more frightened of firearms - or aroused by them - may be a "gender thing" but it is this gender thing that causes women to be the subject of more attacks in the first place! It's another of those damn paradoxes!
Back to being cut vs. shot for stopping power - wouldn't a frantic stab to the throat have as much stopping power as an emotionally distraught potential victim trying to aim and pull the trigger on a gun? Not to mention getting it out of her purse, or glove compartment, or where-ever it is. A sailmaker's tool looks like it would have some stopping power regardless of where it is placed... have you seen those nasty things?
I wonder about the legality of carrying those - they are not a blade - but pretty damn lethal in my book. I would like one on my keychain.
Being armed at all times is a sad commentary on society - but this is a violent world - and the strong will prevail. So how best to legally, safely, and effectively arm ourselves? Most tear gas is a joke - women carrying those things on a key chain almost seem to be advertising their fear. A concealed firearm involves training and permits - and accessiblity is always an issue. And, I think an important question needs to be addressed: what about relying on the weapon so much that when it is taken away you feel completely naked and defenseless - to the point of becoming even more of a victim? Should we not focus on environment weapons? As both Shelly and Mary touch on, shouldn't we mindset to do anything possible with anything available? (Including our "empty hand")
Mary - you are more than welcome! Please keep contributing - your comments add much to the discussion. I like the points you raise. Oh and by the way - I've been there too! I HATE it when a post fries before it gets on the forum - only happens on the really well-written ones! These days I use notepad and save, then cut and paste before posting something I'm spending time and effort on...
Lots of good discussion going on here - thanks for participating.
As for the lurkers - please feel free to add your thoughts - they are welcome. As for any flaming - there is a "no-nonsense" policy on this forum - all who have something to contribute are welcome (even points contrary to mine!) - I will not hesitate to delete anything that is insulting or objectionable to this site or to any of our contributors. This is a safe place to post - so go ahead - hit the "submit" button.
Peace,
Lori
ARMED AND FEMALE
Lori,
>>Back to being cut vs. shot for stopping power - wouldn't a frantic stab to the throat have as much stopping power as an emotionally distraught potential victim trying to aim and pull the trigger on a gun? Not to mention getting it out of her purse, or glove compartment, or where-ever it is. A sailmaker's tool looks like it would have some stopping power regardless of where it is placed... have you seen those nasty things?<<
Van sensei points out cases, and we certainly heard of them ourselves, of people (I use the term lightly) who will continue despite multiple gunshot wounds, never mind stab/slash wounds. This is a definite possibility we need to acknowledge but not become overwhelmed by. In a dire situation, we need to commit to the belief and the practice of "continuous" attack under the other is down and out (or we are down and out). I would personally have the stopping power of high caliber gun. But we don't all have that available to us. If you choose an edged or impact weapon, learn to use it against targets. Yes, with most folks a stab or slash to the right area in the neck will stop most folks in less than a minute (with fatal consequences). A stab into the inner thigh, the femoral artery, will produce likely the same with a little more time. Slashing/severing some major tendons and ligaments wiill seriously hamper most attackers. There will be some non-responders. But, I frankly won't worry about it, largely because I am not sure there is a point given my circumstances.
>>And, I think an important question needs to be addressed: what about relying on the weapon so much that when it is taken away you feel completely naked and defenseless - to the point of becoming even more of a victim? Should we not focus on environment weapons? As both Shelly and Mary touch on, shouldn't we mindset to do anything possible with anything available? (Including our "empty hand")<<
A friend of mine recently mentioned in he carrying a knife, he feels he is becoming mentally reliant on it. I told him not to worry and that he will do what he has to even without it. I know this to be true because he has frankly done what he has to enough times without a carried weapon. The advantage of a weapon is to be respected, but it does come down to the mindset of the person wielding it. I do think empty hand training is an important part of the force continuum. Such training provides more opportunities to practice and to possibily find out whether one has the mindset to persevere. A person who trains with a gun is training with deadier force on the continuum, but will s/he really know or have an indication of what they are capable of before the time comes... Shooting targets on a range is one thing, slugging in out on the floor or mat is another.
my .02 worth,
david
>>Back to being cut vs. shot for stopping power - wouldn't a frantic stab to the throat have as much stopping power as an emotionally distraught potential victim trying to aim and pull the trigger on a gun? Not to mention getting it out of her purse, or glove compartment, or where-ever it is. A sailmaker's tool looks like it would have some stopping power regardless of where it is placed... have you seen those nasty things?<<
Van sensei points out cases, and we certainly heard of them ourselves, of people (I use the term lightly) who will continue despite multiple gunshot wounds, never mind stab/slash wounds. This is a definite possibility we need to acknowledge but not become overwhelmed by. In a dire situation, we need to commit to the belief and the practice of "continuous" attack under the other is down and out (or we are down and out). I would personally have the stopping power of high caliber gun. But we don't all have that available to us. If you choose an edged or impact weapon, learn to use it against targets. Yes, with most folks a stab or slash to the right area in the neck will stop most folks in less than a minute (with fatal consequences). A stab into the inner thigh, the femoral artery, will produce likely the same with a little more time. Slashing/severing some major tendons and ligaments wiill seriously hamper most attackers. There will be some non-responders. But, I frankly won't worry about it, largely because I am not sure there is a point given my circumstances.
>>And, I think an important question needs to be addressed: what about relying on the weapon so much that when it is taken away you feel completely naked and defenseless - to the point of becoming even more of a victim? Should we not focus on environment weapons? As both Shelly and Mary touch on, shouldn't we mindset to do anything possible with anything available? (Including our "empty hand")<<
A friend of mine recently mentioned in he carrying a knife, he feels he is becoming mentally reliant on it. I told him not to worry and that he will do what he has to even without it. I know this to be true because he has frankly done what he has to enough times without a carried weapon. The advantage of a weapon is to be respected, but it does come down to the mindset of the person wielding it. I do think empty hand training is an important part of the force continuum. Such training provides more opportunities to practice and to possibily find out whether one has the mindset to persevere. A person who trains with a gun is training with deadier force on the continuum, but will s/he really know or have an indication of what they are capable of before the time comes... Shooting targets on a range is one thing, slugging in out on the floor or mat is another.
my .02 worth,
david
ARMED AND FEMALE
Hi Lori - thanks for the invite to keep participating on this thread - the notebook idea is an excellent one!
I want all to know that I am basically the “fly in the ointment” on this one. As I wrote earlier, us Canadians are a peaceful lot (most of us would rather party our “victims” into the ground than fight) and as a result I find it difficult to comprehend the fascination a lot of people seem to have with firearms.
To me the major problem with the blade is intimacy (gee I sound like Van-Sensei!!) What I mean by this is that you have to be right there in the middle of the action in order to use it - I personally view the knife as a “dirty” weapon. At Dave Hunt’s summer camp this year I was fortunate enough to take part in a seminar on edged weapon defence - it was a great seminar but hard work. My partner and I didn’t spare each other at all - coming at each other with full intent (mind you, only a plastic weapon). Speed and commitment were crucial elements and I “eviscerated” my partner a few times (2nd degree black belt - much bigger and much stronger). I personally think once an attacker has committed him(her)self - weapon or no weapon, it is difficult to play catch-up. It’s impossible to block the punch once it has landed!
With a gun, there can be distance between shooter and the target and thus a lack of intimacy - perhaps that’s why they are so popular? I guess the whole thing boils down to intent and mind-set. But if one has to use weapons (including empty hands), one must be prepared to go the distance.
------------------
I want all to know that I am basically the “fly in the ointment” on this one. As I wrote earlier, us Canadians are a peaceful lot (most of us would rather party our “victims” into the ground than fight) and as a result I find it difficult to comprehend the fascination a lot of people seem to have with firearms.
To me the major problem with the blade is intimacy (gee I sound like Van-Sensei!!) What I mean by this is that you have to be right there in the middle of the action in order to use it - I personally view the knife as a “dirty” weapon. At Dave Hunt’s summer camp this year I was fortunate enough to take part in a seminar on edged weapon defence - it was a great seminar but hard work. My partner and I didn’t spare each other at all - coming at each other with full intent (mind you, only a plastic weapon). Speed and commitment were crucial elements and I “eviscerated” my partner a few times (2nd degree black belt - much bigger and much stronger). I personally think once an attacker has committed him(her)self - weapon or no weapon, it is difficult to play catch-up. It’s impossible to block the punch once it has landed!
With a gun, there can be distance between shooter and the target and thus a lack of intimacy - perhaps that’s why they are so popular? I guess the whole thing boils down to intent and mind-set. But if one has to use weapons (including empty hands), one must be prepared to go the distance.
------------------
