Ever hear of women taking sadistic pleasure in using their training on their mates, even playfully?
If a male did this, we'd put on the Armor of Chivalry and yell "How dare you!" Lance in hand (or in my case, with a curved Moorish blade and a head wrap) we'd ride towards the evil doer and lash him verbally.
But what do we do when it's the woman abusing the training? I mean, besides just laugh.
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Beatin' Her Man
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Beatin' Her Man
"I mean, besides just laugh"
I don't know what your're laughing at, my girlfriend can kick friggin' hard. Ten years of TKD under Master Cho and this is no laughing matter. I've instituted the "no killing me, please" rule.
I don't know what your're laughing at, my girlfriend can kick friggin' hard. Ten years of TKD under Master Cho and this is no laughing matter. I've instituted the "no killing me, please" rule.
Beatin' Her Man
How do other people react when/if she kicks you, as opposed to how they'd react when/if you kicked her?
That's what I'm getting at.
That's what I'm getting at.
Beatin' Her Man
Cecil,
Not clear where this is taking place and the context. Is it in the dojo, or outside of it? If the latter, I'm believe in being pretty circumspect about training out in the general public. I think "messing around" outside of a training environment and when it isn't really about training, then it is not appropriate, regardless who it is. If it's in training, I think you take and give.
david
Not clear where this is taking place and the context. Is it in the dojo, or outside of it? If the latter, I'm believe in being pretty circumspect about training out in the general public. I think "messing around" outside of a training environment and when it isn't really about training, then it is not appropriate, regardless who it is. If it's in training, I think you take and give.
david
Beatin' Her Man
Are you kidding Cecil? That's one of the few perks - the reverse double standard! (just kidding)
A man "practicing" his karate on a woman - intentionally, accidentally, in our out of the dojo, will elicit a shocked and disgusted response from outsiders or observers. Any woman sporting any kind of a bruise received during training and later finding themselves in the company of a male has noticed the responses from people they encounter. (oh my that poor woman with all those bruises - what a BEAST!)
On the other hand - the general response to a woman smacking or punching or kicking a male is, as you say, laughter - and the interpretation can be quite wide as in:
1) what a stupid woman - doesn't she realize she'll never match up with her silly karate training?
2) she is so stupid to provoke him that way.
3) what a jerk he is letting a woman beat on him that way.
4) isn't that cute? I hope she hurts him.
Not to male bash but there are equal and opposite reactions from male karateka watching a female do karate - as in:
-A woman will never measure up - never match strength, never have "what it takes", can't be a warrior, shouldn't be messing in a man's world, etc. etc. etc.
The sad result is that women will either get "taught a lesson" and be injured, intentionally discouraged, abused, ignored as training partners and all kinds of other things that challenge the female karateka.
My point? None - just that the PC crap and the so called gender bias is a two way street. It won't go away - and neither can you try to be the gallant and say you don't see a woman you just see a karate student -
that's BS. The differences are there and cannot be diminishd or politically corrected for all the good intentions in the world.
In all honesty, in all educational fields there are a number of positives to gender separation for a certain amount of training/learning. This has been proven numerous times in elementary education. Martial Arts has seen indications of this too - all women classes can have higher and longer retention rates for students - some eventually bridging to coed training - others if forced to train in a coed environment will either adapt or quit.
If men and women are to train together - education and information is key - in places like this forum and by having an open communication in the dojo between seniors and juniors - and by careful monitoring of any so called "seniors" who don't feel women have a place in the dojo and hit just a bit too hard or in the wrong place to "teach her a lesson."
A man "practicing" his karate on a woman - intentionally, accidentally, in our out of the dojo, will elicit a shocked and disgusted response from outsiders or observers. Any woman sporting any kind of a bruise received during training and later finding themselves in the company of a male has noticed the responses from people they encounter. (oh my that poor woman with all those bruises - what a BEAST!)
On the other hand - the general response to a woman smacking or punching or kicking a male is, as you say, laughter - and the interpretation can be quite wide as in:
1) what a stupid woman - doesn't she realize she'll never match up with her silly karate training?
2) she is so stupid to provoke him that way.
3) what a jerk he is letting a woman beat on him that way.
4) isn't that cute? I hope she hurts him.
Not to male bash but there are equal and opposite reactions from male karateka watching a female do karate - as in:
-A woman will never measure up - never match strength, never have "what it takes", can't be a warrior, shouldn't be messing in a man's world, etc. etc. etc.
The sad result is that women will either get "taught a lesson" and be injured, intentionally discouraged, abused, ignored as training partners and all kinds of other things that challenge the female karateka.
My point? None - just that the PC crap and the so called gender bias is a two way street. It won't go away - and neither can you try to be the gallant and say you don't see a woman you just see a karate student -
that's BS. The differences are there and cannot be diminishd or politically corrected for all the good intentions in the world.
In all honesty, in all educational fields there are a number of positives to gender separation for a certain amount of training/learning. This has been proven numerous times in elementary education. Martial Arts has seen indications of this too - all women classes can have higher and longer retention rates for students - some eventually bridging to coed training - others if forced to train in a coed environment will either adapt or quit.
If men and women are to train together - education and information is key - in places like this forum and by having an open communication in the dojo between seniors and juniors - and by careful monitoring of any so called "seniors" who don't feel women have a place in the dojo and hit just a bit too hard or in the wrong place to "teach her a lesson."
Beatin' Her Man
I was talking outside of the dojo, but since inside the dojo came up, let's talk about that too.
Outside the dojo:
I've heard of women putting joint locks on men or using them as walking targets, in the name of play fighting. Just like some women probably slap box their men, thinking it is a game. Which, depending on your sado-masochistic leanings, it may be. But: some men will take it, because as men, we're expected to "take it". Then, they may wonder about hitting back. Should they?
Inside the dojo:
What if a woman is getting too aggressive for training mode? What if she's doing something that you'd nail a guy for if he did it? How do you feel if a woman is beating you in sparring?
If she deliberately did a groin shot just because she felt like being a bully, would you nail her?
I have my approach, I'm just wondering what yours is!
And definitely, I think the double standard is in effect. Assuming she doesn't outclass you in fighting, that is.
I have been instructed not to "do her any favors. She's a karateka, treat her as such!" So then, if you tap her in the chin after she's retreating from her attack--just like you would a guy--you get told "hey! Stay away from her face!"
All I know is nobody blinked an eye that time some fifty year old Asian lady popped me in the nose because my guard was too low. I didn't get mad about it, I put my guard up!
Cecil
Badlands: An Underground Science Fiction Novel http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/8194
Outside the dojo:
I've heard of women putting joint locks on men or using them as walking targets, in the name of play fighting. Just like some women probably slap box their men, thinking it is a game. Which, depending on your sado-masochistic leanings, it may be. But: some men will take it, because as men, we're expected to "take it". Then, they may wonder about hitting back. Should they?
Inside the dojo:
What if a woman is getting too aggressive for training mode? What if she's doing something that you'd nail a guy for if he did it? How do you feel if a woman is beating you in sparring?
If she deliberately did a groin shot just because she felt like being a bully, would you nail her?
I have my approach, I'm just wondering what yours is!
And definitely, I think the double standard is in effect. Assuming she doesn't outclass you in fighting, that is.
I have been instructed not to "do her any favors. She's a karateka, treat her as such!" So then, if you tap her in the chin after she's retreating from her attack--just like you would a guy--you get told "hey! Stay away from her face!"
All I know is nobody blinked an eye that time some fifty year old Asian lady popped me in the nose because my guard was too low. I didn't get mad about it, I put my guard up!
Cecil
Badlands: An Underground Science Fiction Novel http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/8194
Beatin' Her Man
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cecil:
I was talking outside of the dojo, but since inside the dojo came up, let's talk about that too.
SNIP!
Inside the dojo:
What if a woman is getting too aggressive for training mode? What if she's doing something that you'd nail a guy for if he did it? How do you feel if a woman is beating you in sparring?
If she deliberately did a groin shot just because she felt like being a bully, would you nail her?
I have my approach, I'm just wondering what yours is!
SNIP-
All I know is nobody blinked an eye that time some fifty year old Asian lady popped me in the nose because my guard was too low. I didn't get mad about it, I put my guard up!
Cecil
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Cecil-sama
I used to do a rather amusing standup comedy routine about my first tournament - where I got my assets kicked pretty seriously by an alleged female opponent (I couldn't tell - and that is NO joke, I really couldn't!).
The problem was, after the "no contact" tournament, my athletic cup was concave instead of being convex and I couldn't walk for a week. I was lucky not to have been hospitalized and, in retrospect, probably should have been.
Part of the responisbility of the Sensei and the assistants is that of safety control.
One muct watch, carefully, what is going on, especially in sparring and toughening exercises, to make sure that all involved stay safe and that no abuse occurs.
My Sensei once ousted one of his top brown belt students for being too damaging to a younger partner. Her actions were deliberate (the brown belt's) and she had some sort of a grudge against her training partner (who was a rank beginner).
Sensei spotted this, told her twice to put a lid on the aggression and, finally, dismissed her until such time as she could return anc behave in a proper manner.
She left us and went to a school across town, trained with them for a few years and wound up with a broken marriage after she had "lost it" one night and nearly beat her husband to death.
Abuses happen in every field. In the MA, we have to be even more vigilant than in many because of the lethal techniques we teach.
Respectfully,
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
I was talking outside of the dojo, but since inside the dojo came up, let's talk about that too.
SNIP!
Inside the dojo:
What if a woman is getting too aggressive for training mode? What if she's doing something that you'd nail a guy for if he did it? How do you feel if a woman is beating you in sparring?
If she deliberately did a groin shot just because she felt like being a bully, would you nail her?
I have my approach, I'm just wondering what yours is!
SNIP-
All I know is nobody blinked an eye that time some fifty year old Asian lady popped me in the nose because my guard was too low. I didn't get mad about it, I put my guard up!
Cecil
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Cecil-sama
I used to do a rather amusing standup comedy routine about my first tournament - where I got my assets kicked pretty seriously by an alleged female opponent (I couldn't tell - and that is NO joke, I really couldn't!).
The problem was, after the "no contact" tournament, my athletic cup was concave instead of being convex and I couldn't walk for a week. I was lucky not to have been hospitalized and, in retrospect, probably should have been.
Part of the responisbility of the Sensei and the assistants is that of safety control.
One muct watch, carefully, what is going on, especially in sparring and toughening exercises, to make sure that all involved stay safe and that no abuse occurs.
My Sensei once ousted one of his top brown belt students for being too damaging to a younger partner. Her actions were deliberate (the brown belt's) and she had some sort of a grudge against her training partner (who was a rank beginner).
Sensei spotted this, told her twice to put a lid on the aggression and, finally, dismissed her until such time as she could return anc behave in a proper manner.
She left us and went to a school across town, trained with them for a few years and wound up with a broken marriage after she had "lost it" one night and nearly beat her husband to death.
Abuses happen in every field. In the MA, we have to be even more vigilant than in many because of the lethal techniques we teach.
Respectfully,
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
Beatin' Her Man
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I've heard of women putting joint locks on men or using them as walking targets, in the name of play fighting. Just like some women probably slap box their men, thinking it is a game. Which, depending on your sado-masochistic leanings, it may be. But: some men will take it, because as men, we're expected to "take it". Then, they may wonder about hitting back. Should they?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
There is a pyschology there that I would find disturbing. I consider such behavior as a transgression of boundaries and ettiquete. Man or woman, I wouldn't be hanging with such a person for long. It's trouble waiting to happen.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>What if a woman is getting too aggressive for training mode? What if she's doing something that you'd nail a guy for if he did it? How do you feel if a woman is beating you in sparring?
If she deliberately did a groin shot just because she felt like being a bully, would you nail her
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sparring = training. Training is a reciprocal process where both a providing a mirror for the other to learn. Should be mutual understanding or what is being practiced. In sparring, there should be a clear understanding of the basic parameters. If someone changes the parameter unilaterally, I would ask if that is the direction s/he want's to go. If so, fine. They should expect that I will try to give as they had given. I personally try to stay near the level of my training partner -- male or female. If we establish no/light contact, fine. If we establish, harder contact, fine. The boundaries established can push the envelop of the skill level but still remain on the side of safety. Any deliberate and continuous crossing over the boundary means the "training" mentality and environment have been violated. The transgressor has to stop, or the training has to stop. If not, the training encounter is headed towards unarmed combat.
david
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
There is a pyschology there that I would find disturbing. I consider such behavior as a transgression of boundaries and ettiquete. Man or woman, I wouldn't be hanging with such a person for long. It's trouble waiting to happen.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>What if a woman is getting too aggressive for training mode? What if she's doing something that you'd nail a guy for if he did it? How do you feel if a woman is beating you in sparring?
If she deliberately did a groin shot just because she felt like being a bully, would you nail her
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sparring = training. Training is a reciprocal process where both a providing a mirror for the other to learn. Should be mutual understanding or what is being practiced. In sparring, there should be a clear understanding of the basic parameters. If someone changes the parameter unilaterally, I would ask if that is the direction s/he want's to go. If so, fine. They should expect that I will try to give as they had given. I personally try to stay near the level of my training partner -- male or female. If we establish no/light contact, fine. If we establish, harder contact, fine. The boundaries established can push the envelop of the skill level but still remain on the side of safety. Any deliberate and continuous crossing over the boundary means the "training" mentality and environment have been violated. The transgressor has to stop, or the training has to stop. If not, the training encounter is headed towards unarmed combat.
david
Beatin' Her Man
I agree. I think that as this post relates to me right now, I may have to make some temporary changes, we shall say.
The thing is this: ever been in a situation where the other person tries to up the ante on you?
This is why, as much as I hate the way I have ended up having to train, it has paid off in dividends of safety. I spent years at a lower level of just learning striking without kata. But, those years gave me a fundamental sense of learning how to fight. No, I am no Bruce Lee. I've had settle with dabbling here and there until about four or five years ago, because I was a poor college student/reservist, then a poor recent college grad, then a poor parent and now a white-collar working class husband.
The meditation stuff has allowed for slow-mo to kick in. If slow-mo is kicking in during a sparring session, that's when I know the other person is getting nutty on me.
Women, as well as men, have gotten nutty on me. Just let me start doing well at fending off an attack and all hell will break lose with some people. It is all good if they keep tagging me in an area that I am habitually leaving open. Contact will stay light/medium. But don't let me do that to them. The floodgates open.
Oh man, don't let me get started on how women will go at each other in a tournament. I tell you, the first time I saw black belt women sparring at a TKD tournament back in the 80's, I was intimidated. I said to my teacher "Thank God I don't have to fight them." He laughed.
Usually, if a male is going nutty on me, and I deck him, it's accepted. I don't think that if I decked a woman who was going nutty on me, it would be accepted. If I were going nutty on her and she whopped me in the head, of course, it would be accepted.
Call me a sexist, but I don't want to completely erode the aversion I have for boxing women. I thought I'd gotten rid of it, but one of the senior black belts said she still noticed it in me. I don't think I try to hold back when boxing a female. If I do, it's subconscious. Perhaps it is not such a bad thing.
Cecil
Badlands: An Underground Science Fiction Novel http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/8194
The thing is this: ever been in a situation where the other person tries to up the ante on you?
This is why, as much as I hate the way I have ended up having to train, it has paid off in dividends of safety. I spent years at a lower level of just learning striking without kata. But, those years gave me a fundamental sense of learning how to fight. No, I am no Bruce Lee. I've had settle with dabbling here and there until about four or five years ago, because I was a poor college student/reservist, then a poor recent college grad, then a poor parent and now a white-collar working class husband.
The meditation stuff has allowed for slow-mo to kick in. If slow-mo is kicking in during a sparring session, that's when I know the other person is getting nutty on me.
Women, as well as men, have gotten nutty on me. Just let me start doing well at fending off an attack and all hell will break lose with some people. It is all good if they keep tagging me in an area that I am habitually leaving open. Contact will stay light/medium. But don't let me do that to them. The floodgates open.
Oh man, don't let me get started on how women will go at each other in a tournament. I tell you, the first time I saw black belt women sparring at a TKD tournament back in the 80's, I was intimidated. I said to my teacher "Thank God I don't have to fight them." He laughed.
Usually, if a male is going nutty on me, and I deck him, it's accepted. I don't think that if I decked a woman who was going nutty on me, it would be accepted. If I were going nutty on her and she whopped me in the head, of course, it would be accepted.
Call me a sexist, but I don't want to completely erode the aversion I have for boxing women. I thought I'd gotten rid of it, but one of the senior black belts said she still noticed it in me. I don't think I try to hold back when boxing a female. If I do, it's subconscious. Perhaps it is not such a bad thing.
Cecil
Badlands: An Underground Science Fiction Novel http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/8194
Beatin' Her Man
Im a shotokan student in australia, and i would have to say that (being a woman) i expect to get just as much as i give. i personally want the guys in the class to train just as hard with me as with each other. i try hard to let everyone know that im capable to taking hits with out a problem, because i know there really is a feeling of - you dont want to hit the girls hard because its wrong. im there to train and get better, and if i was afraid of maybe getting a little bruise or something like that id certainly not be doing karate! (besides ive always got bruises and things from one thing or another...)
i guess it may be different for other women training depending on they're motivation etc, but i prefer fighting with the guys who arn't too worried about my "delicate" constitution!!! but i have to admit myself that i always worry about hitting someone else too hard (male or female), and feel terrible if they look like they may have been hurt a little.
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:-D Anna
i guess it may be different for other women training depending on they're motivation etc, but i prefer fighting with the guys who arn't too worried about my "delicate" constitution!!! but i have to admit myself that i always worry about hitting someone else too hard (male or female), and feel terrible if they look like they may have been hurt a little.
------------------
:-D Anna
Beatin' Her Man
Hi Anna,
First of all, welcome to the forums! This is an age old question in training for men and women. There is no simple answer. Many women share your opinion that we should take what we give and be able to take what we dish out no matter if it is a man or a woman across from us.
However, it is frankly dangerous to say to a 250 pound man just hit me like you would another guy your size. Men have a tremedous amount of power that they don't unleash with a partner, male or female. So to a certain extent everyone is holding back because we are not fighting with 100% live or die, street survival intent in a daily basis in the dojo.
I think the goal then is find an appropriate level with each training partner where they are being pushed to perform at their best level and then a little beyond. This is going to be different for each two people who step on the floor together and may require a continuing dialogue so each person knows where the other persons at.
The whole question of what happens when someone is "going nutty" as Cecil put it -- is entirely different. My take on this is that guys, for the most part, understand that when they've gone over the top, the alpha male is going to whollop them back in line. I don't think women have the same...wiring. We tend to establish our pecking order verbally instead of physically. So, it might be that if a woman is going over the top the 1st thing should be a verbal warning. Then when the physcial response comes she knows why. And won't think that you're just hitting her harder to show you can.
Dana
First of all, welcome to the forums! This is an age old question in training for men and women. There is no simple answer. Many women share your opinion that we should take what we give and be able to take what we dish out no matter if it is a man or a woman across from us.
However, it is frankly dangerous to say to a 250 pound man just hit me like you would another guy your size. Men have a tremedous amount of power that they don't unleash with a partner, male or female. So to a certain extent everyone is holding back because we are not fighting with 100% live or die, street survival intent in a daily basis in the dojo.
I think the goal then is find an appropriate level with each training partner where they are being pushed to perform at their best level and then a little beyond. This is going to be different for each two people who step on the floor together and may require a continuing dialogue so each person knows where the other persons at.
The whole question of what happens when someone is "going nutty" as Cecil put it -- is entirely different. My take on this is that guys, for the most part, understand that when they've gone over the top, the alpha male is going to whollop them back in line. I don't think women have the same...wiring. We tend to establish our pecking order verbally instead of physically. So, it might be that if a woman is going over the top the 1st thing should be a verbal warning. Then when the physcial response comes she knows why. And won't think that you're just hitting her harder to show you can.
Dana
Beatin' Her Man
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tunetigress:
Although I practice Kenpo, rather than Uechi-Ryu, I find that as female martial artists, our experiences are ever so similar! I wanted to share an incident that occurred just after I received my Yellow belt, and my hubby was having 'fun' making derogatory remarks about my, and my young daughter's, new 'hobby.' To make a long story short, I took him up on his "well show me what you learned today at Karate" remark, and in short order nearly broke his arm! The pain from that incident apparently has endured longer than just the bruises, as hubby has been nothing but supportive of our studies ever since! I have never since then used any Karate whatsoever on my hubby, and now he is thinking about eventually enrolling himself when our youngest is old enough to begin training with him. Well, bestill my heart, I just can't wait! LOL VIVE LA DIFFERENCE, MES AMIS!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
TISH!! That's French!!
(I just couldn't resist)
With tongue firmly in cheek and with a valiant attempt to show that I do have a sense of humor after the date rape thread rant,
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
Although I practice Kenpo, rather than Uechi-Ryu, I find that as female martial artists, our experiences are ever so similar! I wanted to share an incident that occurred just after I received my Yellow belt, and my hubby was having 'fun' making derogatory remarks about my, and my young daughter's, new 'hobby.' To make a long story short, I took him up on his "well show me what you learned today at Karate" remark, and in short order nearly broke his arm! The pain from that incident apparently has endured longer than just the bruises, as hubby has been nothing but supportive of our studies ever since! I have never since then used any Karate whatsoever on my hubby, and now he is thinking about eventually enrolling himself when our youngest is old enough to begin training with him. Well, bestill my heart, I just can't wait! LOL VIVE LA DIFFERENCE, MES AMIS!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
TISH!! That's French!!
(I just couldn't resist)
With tongue firmly in cheek and with a valiant attempt to show that I do have a sense of humor after the date rape thread rant,
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
-
tunetigress
- Posts: 25
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
- Location: Vancouver Island, Canada
- Contact:
Beatin' Her Man
Although I practice Kenpo, rather than Uechi-Ryu, I find that as female martial artists, our experiences are ever so similar! I wanted to share an incident that occurred just after I received my Yellow belt, and my hubby was having 'fun' making derogatory remarks about my, and my young daughter's, new 'hobby.' To make a long story short, I took him up on his "well show me what you learned today at Karate" remark, and in short order nearly broke his arm! The pain from that incident apparently has endured longer than just the bruises, as hubby has been nothing but supportive of our studies ever since! I have never since then used any Karate whatsoever on my hubby, and now he is thinking about eventually enrolling himself when our youngest is old enough to begin training with him. Well, bestill my heart, I just can't wait! LOL VIVE LA DIFFERENCE, MES AMIS!
