Kenpo/Kempo

Kong Jianshen · Post by **Kong Jianshen** » Fri Dec 01, 2000 1:49 am

Hi all. I was wondering what everyone here thought of kenpo/kempo? I understand the styles are:

American Kenpo - Parker

Chinese Kara Ho Kenpo - Chow

Shaolin Kempo - Fred Villari. I have heard there are shaolin kempo styles that have nothing to do with Villari? His brand of Kempo was in Black Belt not too long ago shown by Steve DeMasco.

Shaolin Kenpo - Ralph Castro

Shorinji Kempo - Japanese Kempo

Okinawan Kempo - I know nothing about this style.

Anyone have any info on the above styles? I read that combining Kenpo with traditional karate styles can give you a very fast hard hitting array of techniques.

Thanks in advance!

Rich Mooney · Post by **Rich Mooney** » Fri Dec 01, 2000 4:37 am

Panther · Post by **Panther** » Fri Dec 01, 2000 6:26 pm

As Moony-san has already posted, there is no fundamentally no difference in the meaning of "kenpo" and "kempo". Having acknowledged that, here's some more information. (I'm a real sucker for all this history crap...

It's because I got tired of people claiming things that were, well... Bravo Sierra.)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Kong Jianshen:
I understand the styles are:

American Kenpo - Parker
Chinese Kara Ho Kenpo - Chow
Shaolin Kempo - Fred Villari<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kosho-ryu Kempo traces it's history back to the 15th century where it was taught to the Mitose family by visiting monks. It's a form of Chinese Chuan Fa that was blended with some Japanese Ju-jitsu and had a strong fundamental basis in Zen philosophy. Interestingly enough, the Mitose family's Japanese "clan" name, Kosho, means "old pine tree" and the Chinese Shaolin means "pine forest". Kosho-ryu Kempo was brought to the U.S. (Hawaii) by James Mitose, who's students included his son, Tom; Kajukenbo founder, Adriano Emperado; and Kara-Ho Kempo founder, William K.S. Chow.

Kara-Ho Kempo is a combination of the Kosho-ryu Kempo and the Chow family's traditional "5 animal style" of gung-fu. Ed Parker and Ralph Castro were both William K.S. Chow's students.

Kajukenbo originated when Emperado and other practitioners brought together their knowledge to create a unified style to include each of their specialties. Karate, Judo (-jitsu), Kenpo, Chuan-Fa or Chinese Boxing. Student's of this style included George Pesare who was Nick Cerio's first teacher. Supposedly, Fred Villari was originally a student of kajukenbo... Then again, he was also supposedly a student of Chow's but the records don't bear that out. In a personal conversation with Professor Cerio in 1984, he told me about having a new student move up through the ranks and finally make shodan... shortly afterwards, that student quit making the drive to RI for training with Professor Cerio and opened his own school in MA... The student was Fred Villari. Nick Cerio was the person who confirmed for me that he had gone repeatedly and trained with William K.S. Chow (who he referred to as his sensei) and that at one point Mr. Villari arrived in Hawaii for training, but (contrary to some claims that I've heard) Chow never actually taught him. Professor Cerio never what or why, but evidently there was some problem that arose and Villari left shortly thereafter... at least according to Professor Cerio.

There is also a style that is called Kosho Shorei-ryu Kempo. It's headed by Bruce Jucnick, who studied many different styles, but was issued his "Master's certificate" from James Mitose. Interestingly enough, he never physically trained with Mitose. All of that "training" was verbal only, as Mitose was serving out a life sentence in a CA maximum security prison. (It was a prison guard who was actually working out on a regular basis with both Jucnick and Mitose - the latter behind bars - who introduced them to each other.)

Now, there are various off-shoots of each of these branches. You mention the "Shaolin Kempo" branch of Villari. Offshoots include Master's Self-defense/Kempo, Master's Karate, Bill Brogna's Kempo, United Studios of Self Defense, and the current Villari's Studios.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Shorinji Kempo - Japanese Kempo

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Rich Mooney

shorinji kempo was created by Doshin So after WWII If I am not mistaken.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, sort of...

Shorinji Kempo (Shorinji is the Japanese pronounciation of the Chinese Shaolin and has the same meaning) has a couple of branches. One of them has changed it's name to "Nippon Kempo" and another branch became known as "Shorinji Kempo"... and neither of them were founded by Doshin So. Both of those branches originated in the early 30's and were combinations of ****o-ryu karate and Judo. Dai-Soke Doshin So had grown up for much of his childhood in China, even though he was Japanese. He studied some of the Chinese "Shaolin gung-fu" arts when younger and in the 30s was sent back to China by the Japanse military as a spy. During that time, he took up his study again. When the war was over, he returned to Japan and started teaching "Shorinji Kempo". The Japanese government (Budokukai), responding to the fact that two different styles were both using the name, made him change the name to Nippon Shorinji Kempo. Fifteen years ago, practitioners of this style in the U.S. were very few for political/religious reasons. However, in the last 8-10 years, the style has grown with a headquarters in NYC.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Okinawan Kempo - I know nothing about this style.

Okinawan or Ryukyu Kempo was the first style that Gichin Funakoshi learned in Okinawa. Contemporary practitioners include Pantazi, Dillman, Oyata, Clark and Logue... All these branches have begun stressing the "kyusho" and "tuite" aspects of the art. Some regard Funakoshi as the last "purist" of the art, who wanted everyone who studied to learn all aspects. That is still debated.

Hope this mini-history has helped some...

Kong Jianshen · Post by **Kong Jianshen** » Fri Dec 01, 2000 8:44 pm

Panther that was awesome. You know your Kenpo! I been looking for the most realistic, direct, and most importantly street effective Kenpo method. I like Kara Ho and the Mitose Kempo. So far those seem like the ones that might suit my purpose. Any recommendations?

Panther · Post by **Panther** » Fri Dec 01, 2000 9:54 pm

Ummmm, I did a little bit of the Parker system and Kajukenbo from Professor Cerio at the time I moved back near my original shihan, who finished bringing me through to rank in Nippon Shorinji Kempo, and Professor Cerio would visit us or we him very often. I also worked out for a very short while at a Villari's place that was close at the time and fit my limited schedule... My perference didn't agree with their attitude/style. The Nippon Shorinji Kempo style is wholly unlike the other ones, but there is a lot of crossing of the Villari stuff from the Chow/Parker/Cerio stuff. In the New England area, the Cerio schools (which are now run by an oversight board since Professor Cerio passed away with an appointed board, but without a designated "heir") are some of the best. There you will get much of the Kara-Ho elements with some other stuff thrown in. Professor Cerio used to refer to Chow as his sensei and Parker as his coach. IIRC, his last girlfriend/wife (from South Africa) is also high ranking in the Cerio system.

[This message has been edited by Panther (edited December 01, 2000).]

Ted Dinwiddie · Post by **Ted Dinwiddie** » Fri Dec 01, 2000 10:49 pm

I practice Okinawan Kempo under an instructor who is very application oriented. I have been exposed to instructors who were not. My opinion is not to shop styles so much as instructors. Different styles will lend themselves to particular body and/or personality types, but the way they are taught and the person/people they are taught by will be the most important.

MA training is highly personal and your instructor(s) will become an integral part of your life if you are serious and persistant (in it for the long haul). Some instructors enjoy bringing out the tiger that hides in the mouse, others work better with fire breathers. Some instructors are the proverbial "lotus eaters" and teach thusly, some hate doubting questions etc.

Find the teacher YOU want to learn from.

BTW the Okinawan Kempo senseis I know are very open minded and from eclectic backgrounds. The "old guys" 300 years ago learned from everybody they could, so should we.

ted

Evan Pantazi · Post by **Evan Pantazi** » Mon Dec 04, 2000 12:46 pm

Panther San,

This is a story personally told to me by the Late professor Cerio:

There was a difficulty with Cerio and Villari over a stolen Kata. The only Kata that Chow Sensei supposedly taught. The Kata was taught to Cerio under strick confidence not to be shown to anyone. Professor Cerio later approached Chow to ask if he could show it to one individual, from which Villari managed to con and have it shown, (this and attitude were the reasons for his departure supposedly under the tuteledge of a Shaolin Master). It was also told to me by Professor Cerio that Villari could not remember Kata very well and would often change things. This Kata is "Hon Su Ki" (I believe the translation is 7 energy hand).

Kenpo seems to be the root from Japan as the Kempo is from Okinawa and more ancient and direct lineage from China. Some US Practioners adopted the "Kempo" (as in Villari's Case) to be different from other area schools. The Pinan/Heian Kata's of Itosu being the most common base of all the dirivitives...(except the Parker system which was totally fabricated by Parker Sensei himself). Professor also used to teach these, but slowly switched as he also developed his own training Kata's.

And so the story continues to change with time and people as it has from the beginning...good, bad or indifferent. Just be aware of what you are being taught and don't be blinded by the style.

PS. Any style can give you fast hard hitting arrays...it's all in how YOU train.

------------------
Evan Pantazi
www.kyusho.com

Panther · Post by **Panther** » Mon Dec 04, 2000 3:09 pm

Pantazi-san,

Thanks for the insight. Professor Cerio didn't give any real details, but it was clear that something was "stolen" and Both Professor Cerio and Chow-sensei were, ummmmm, "pi$$ed-off" about it. I got the impression that it was a manual or a book, but thinking back to that conversation, it could have very well been a kata. Hmmmm... What a great person to train with.

And I completely agree, while picking a style is important (for individual reasons), picking a sensei and training is most important.

Kong Jianshen · Post by **Kong Jianshen** » Mon Dec 04, 2000 7:45 pm

Some guy in my area teaches Kenpokido. I think its a mix of Kenpo and Hapkido. I would be atleast wary tho. Then again, he might be really good. Thats all I know about it.

Robb in Sacramento · Post by **Robb in Sacramento** » Tue Dec 05, 2000 4:42 am

Panther:

Thanks for all the information. I was hoping you could fill me in on how the Tracy Brothers fit into the Kenpo/Kempo story in America. They were very big here in California for a while.

I also understand there is some sort of split between the east and west coast kempo taught by Mr. Parker. Any insight on this schism?

Thanks. Peace.
Robb in Sacramento

Kong Jianshen · Post by **Kong Jianshen** » Tue Dec 05, 2000 5:26 am

Ya I guess someone is going to be fast and hit hard regardless of what style they do. Its just that some styles are known for certain things. I thought that American Kenpo would be good to get hand skills, speed and hit hard but now I think that can be just as easily done in ANY style. As long as YOU, are willing to train hard. Anyone know any karate men who were famous for thier fast and powerful hand strikes that didnt do Kenpo? It seems its gotten a rep since the whole Perfect Weapon movie. Thanks for all the great insight people.

PS: Evan, I read up on you. Your quite the martial artist

I'll take your words to the heart! I'd actually very much like to make it to one of your seminars some day.

Jim Kass · Post by **Jim Kass** » Tue Dec 05, 2000 5:33 am

Okinawa Kenpo is a close relative of Shorin Ryu. Mark Bishop's book, "Okinawa Karate, Teachers, styles and secret techniques", provides a good history and description of Shigeru Nakamura's (founder of style) system. Back in the late 60's we use to spar with a few of the guys from the Nago dojo and they were unique at that time as it was full contact, but you used Kendo gear for hand, head and body protection.
Most of the Kenpo Kata (Shuri based) had slight variations of technique within the forms (example is in Pinan kata, side kicks were used vs. front kicks in most Shorin cousins).
I have recently run across a style calld "Kenpokido", does anyone know anything about this style?

------------------
Jim Kass

Panther · Post by **Panther** » Tue Dec 05, 2000 3:57 pm

It's not really a schism. The Tracys teach the "Tracy System" which is Ed Parker's American Kenpo. They were promoted by Ed Parker and remained close to him. Where they have a problem with other Kenpo/kempo organizations is when those other organizations claim rights of succession to Parker's style. Parker left no successor... yet since his death, the number of self-proclaimed 10th-dan Kenpo/kempo "Grand Masters" is astounding!

Ed Parker had the same attitude as most of the living legends that I've been fortunate enough to meet and/or workout with... When addressed as "Grandmaster Parker" (the one and only time we met) he replied, "Mr. Parker is plenty respectful enough..." and then after seeing who I was with... "but you can call me 'Ed'..." I addressed Nick Cerio the way he had been introduced/referred to me... as Professor Cerio. He thought that was rather amusing, but sitting around and talking after the workout, he told me... just "Nick". I have a number of other examples of that attitude and given the forum, I'll give one more... Even though there's been some humorous posts about using "Maestro", I was originally introduced to him as "Professor Mattson". Both then and now, he still says, "George". Using these martial arts giants as my guide, that is one of my main criteria for anyone who I want to workout with... If I walk into a dojo and someone walks up and introduces themselves as "Grand-master pooh-bah, umteenth degree black-belt, yaddayadda"... well, thanks, but... no thanks, I've met real martial arts masters and with less than a handful of exceptions, they're all genuinely nice, caring and humble people.

Panther · Post by **Panther** » Fri Dec 08, 2000 7:48 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by crazycat:

I'm not trying to place sticks in the spokes here, as any system evolves these kinds of questions and stories come up. I find it interesting.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I really don't have a problem with people "starting their own style". I just think that the person should have a certain master's master level in the base style(s) before thinking they know it all [I}and[/I] that the person should be proud of their history and lineage. That's where my criticism comes in regarding many of the self-proclaimed grandmasters of certain styles... Their lineage and training always seems to be "mysterious" and "mystical"... Taurus Manuri... Everybody was a beginner sometime and had to study with somebody! If someone wants to be legitimate, they should be honest about their lineage and training. Especially given the fact that so much can be found out these days from corroborating sources.

crazycat · Post by **crazycat** » Sat Dec 09, 2000 5:38 am

A note sent to me. Maybe someone has bad karma coming to them.

Han Su Ki breaks down to three words. Han = Tiger Su = paws Ki = the number 7 in Cantonese or a derivative of Chi.

It could be a mish mash of both Chinese and Japanese lingo. ? not sure.

However, I don't find it important.

Knowing the structure of Chinese forms and the way Han Su Ki is put together I can't say that the form itself is an old one.
It does not follow the rules of movement provided by the old teachings. Which would make it more likely to be a creation of Ed Parker.
But then again I am just speculating.

Remember, it's not the material, it's not the form, and it's not the system that make a fighter proficient. It is the man/woman him or her self.
The inner being is what makes a warrior not the outer.

I was also told that 6 kata was the form Vallari may have taken as there are 5 pinion and 6 kata, this seems to create an imbalence. 6 kata was demonstrated at a tournement (whatever) and someone picked up on the form being done by Vallarie or one of his students and hence may have made the statement.

I'm not trying to place sticks in the spokes here, as any system evolves these kinds of questions and stories come up. I find it interesting.