Hey Bill,
With respect to your search for proof of the exsistance of "ki", I came across this discussuion on on of the aikido boards.
It's pretty technical!
Enjoy http://www.aikidojournal.com/ubb/Forum9/HTML/000255.html
-Meta
------------------
If you overlook the Way right before your
eyes, how will you know the path beneath
your feet? Advancing has nothing to do with
near and far, yet delusion creates obstacles
high and wide. Students of the mystery, I
humbly urge you, don't waste a moment, night
or day!
An interesting link, but unfortunately this conversation falls into that category of the scientific metaphor, in which someone takes a philosophical concept without a physical correlate and tried to make it concrete or scientific with a bunch of spurious comparisons to the physical world.
Just to point out a few early misfacts that really ate at me because I had a special interest in ox-phos back in biochem: a gram of fat does not yield 38 ATP molecules. That's the theoretical yield from a SINGLE molecule of glucose. The yield from a gram of fat would be staggering in comparison. And glycolysis is always anaerobic. The question is whether O2 is around to use some of the byproducts from the process and from the Krebs cycle efficiently (allowing you to take glucose all the way to water and CO2), or not (and you are left with unused lactate or alcohol, depending on what you are). Further, aerobic metabolism is not related to adrenaline release; this process goes on while we sleep, whereas ANaerobic metabolism is revved up during fight or flight. That's for starters... mostly to show what kind of liberties are being taken. This is just the basic science... where it gets attached to an agenda, things really take off
Thanks. It's been a long time since I counted ATP molecules around the Krebs cycle.
It sure would be nice if a gram of fat yielded the same ATP as a molecule of glucose, wouldn't it? We wouldn't have any more fat people on this earth, as they'd all deplete their fat reserves in the first second or so of exercise. Talk about getting results!
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited December 06, 2000).]
I confess that while the detailed scientific explanation is interesting, the quotation cited is quite illuminating and infinitely more instructive.
"If you overlook the Way right before your
eyes, how will you know the path beneath
your feet?....."
I believe the author, quite advanced, is cautioning us about training ourselves totally. I'd be interested in your comments and interpretations. Best regards. Phils
Hmmmm...
Deeper meaning in my quote?
Ok, you caught me.
I stole this from a fortune cookie I got once from a chinese takeout dinner.
-Meta "smartass" Baron
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If you overlook the Way right before your
eyes, how will you know that the eggrolls are rancid? Advancing has nothing to do with near and far, yet sweet and sour sauce creates obstacles high and wide. Students of the mysterious meat in the buffet, I humbly urge you, don't forget to take pepto bismo!
- Shih-t'ou of the way of the intercepting Chicken
(700-790)
[This message has been edited by MetaBaron (edited December 06, 2000).]
Very good! Humor can amplify, illuminate lighten or even minimize. I wouldn't presume MetaBaron and accept the gentle jibe with kindly spirit and good heart. I can laugh at myself. However, I do believe the quote has meaning for the serious martial artist, whether it was the invention of '****two' or a joke by 'MacroMoron'.
The question at hand is a sincere one should you care to comment.
[This message has been edited by Phils (edited December 06, 2000).]
I've been following that discussion now. I have some random thoughts:
* Someone is really good at getting images on their web page forum. Nice color pictures.
* As Ian mentioned before, the guy is all off on his ATP calculation numbers. There's a BIG difference between a molecule of fat or glucose, and a gram of fat or glucose. It's on the order of about 1 with 23 zeros after it (Avagadro's number is 6.02 E23, which is the number of molecules in a mole, which is on the order of grams of a substance).
* Just because there are electrical events going on in the brain or the nervous system does not mean that it is capable of sending out electric charges of any amount of energy. That would be like saying that an Intel Pentium chip could fire off electrical charges that'll put your Star Trek phasors on kill. A microprocessor is so sensitive that a static charge on a dry day will kill it. Your brain similarly passes signals on the order of microvolts (1 microvolt is 0.000001 volts). That's not even enough to power the simplest kid's toy.
* Once again, pretty pictures of the nerves, and half-baked discussions about the resting and action potentials in nerves. We have sensitive instruments that measure nerve traffic. A signal on a nerve is FM or frequency modulated. That means the information is NOT in the amplitude of the nerve impulse, but in the variation of the firing frequency. So...what does this have to do with ki?
* Any of the discussion on electrostatic charges of the earth vs. people is total garbage. We have instruments that read such charges. What is proposed is nonsense, and would have been detetected a long time ago if it existed.
* We know about the characteristics of the electromagnetic spectrum. So what? What does that have to do with alleged psychic phenomena? If people could "tune in" to signals at given frequencies, then we would have taken advantage of that long ago. Why have the radio if you could transmit directly to the brain? Plus we could have tapped into such signals to operate prostheses. Actually some of that is happening now, but there's nothing magic about it. It's basic physiology and electrical engineering. So...what does that have to do with psychic abilities and/or ki?
The problem here is that folks are taking something that is all about feelings and attempting to link it to concrete, physiologic phenomena. Sometimes it's there, and sometimes it's just....feelings. Yes, I feel a certain way when I have a good workout. I feel a certain way (like last night) when I am "on" or "in the zone." But if I were to run a fast 100 meter dash, I wouldn't attribute the feat to the quality of the watch that timed me. Similarly, I would not attribute much to the sense of wellbeing, other than the fact that my body makes me feel a certain way (good) when I do things right. Maybe it's just a good hit of endorphins. Maybe it's the feel of a circulatory and respiratory system in good working order - kinda like the sound of a well-tuned engine. Maybe it's just the sense that I have finally walked the narrow path that gives me the right result with a certain, precise set of body movements.
When I listen to a piece of music and it moves me, I don't try to overanalyze the passion. It totally misses the point. I pretty much feel the same way about being "in the zone."
Hello,
Indeed these were the writings of a warrior-poet. This is actually a Zen-Koan.
By the way, BACK TO THE TOPIC if I may.
Last night, in my Aikido class, the Sensei demonstrated a Ki principle that I would
like to have insight on.
My sensei, who is in his late 80's demonstrated the "Lead body technique" (i call it
lead body for lack of a better term)
in which he asked me to lift him up. My sensei, weighing possibly no more that
.85 cents and some change while wet and with rocks in his pockets, was light as a
feather to me, who is 6"4 and can bench press up to 250lbs. (My stregnth is rather legendary in my neighborhood.)
Then he stated that
he will no channel his KI to drain my KI into the ground, and he asked me to
repeat the test.
To my shock, my Sensei was rooted to the spot! I tried as hard as I could, and
almost got a hernia from trying to lift him. Sensei Glasheeen has noted in an earlier
post that this was just a minor readjustment of his elbows or leverage, but I mean
COME on! My sensei could not have possibly with stood my strength by such
tiny means. To belive the this teeny tiny fraile man could keep me from lifting him
with only a slight movement of his arms makes about as much sense as monkeys
popping out of my O ring and taking flight. Any Ideas??
-Meta
------------------
If you overlook the Way right before your
eyes, how will you know the path beneath
your feet? Advancing has nothing to do with
near and far, yet delusion creates obstacles
high and wide. Students of the mystery, I
humbly urge you, don't waste a moment, night
or day!
- Shih-t'ou (700-790)
[This message has been edited by MetaBaron (edited December 08, 2000).]
The idea is to relax, not inhibit, and direct the flow downward with conscious intention. That takes practice and control of the body and mind, which your teacher appears to have internalized.
You are also exactly where I was when I saw the the words in your post because I believe the koan is talking about the path of your energy, paying attention is the intent, and practice is the necessary and often misunderstood component.
Nicely done! It's wonderful when such connections are made, even if serendipitous!
That presumes the body in question doesn't adjust to efforts to move it. In other words, it denies the dynamic capability of attack which is inherent in higher level uses of energy in the martial arts. Let's say the 85 lbs of water in a squishy bag can also adjust with intent and attack! It would move you with ease!
What amazes me is in the 'connecting' in this way to someone who wrote this over a thousand years ago! Read it again!
[This message has been edited by Phils (edited December 08, 2000).]
Let's say the 85 lbs of water in a squishy bag can also adjust with intent and attack!
A squishy bag with an attitude... Some people call that tai chi.
If you understand the working principles, you can undermine the technique. The quicker you realize it isn't magic, the quicker you can solve the physical dilemma.
I'm not sure I called it magic, although if we're talking about theory, some would say that Einstein's theory of relativity, where energy converts to matter and visa versa at an exponential rate pegged to the speed of light, has mind boggling facets.
People talk about that theory as a given. I can tell you that "solving the physical dilemna" is easier said than done. If you can reduce tai chi to something squishy with an attitude you are either mocking or misunderstand me.
[This message has been edited by Phils (edited December 08, 2000).]
Let's say this teacher wants us to grab him under the arms and lift him. Problem is, his shell is squishy. Well...what about if I take my fingers, drive them into his armpits (where there is a nice nerve bundle) and grab the edges of the pectoralis muscles with my shokens? The natural reaction (in the simplest case) would be for him to pull his shoulders down rather abruptly. No more squishy bag. Then I lift and move.
I'll be damned...I believe someone already made up that move (in seisan). <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Not wanting to comment on this specific demonstration, but when I witnessed this demonstration for the first time by an Aikido teacher back in the mid 60s, he placed his hands under the elbows of the person doing the lifting. . . essentially forcing the person to lift the teacher and himself! A nice trick, but nothing to do with KI.
http://www.aikidojournal.com/ubb/Forum9/HTML/000255.html 
