I know we have a few medical people (Bill, Ian, others??) in the group, perhaps ya'll can answer my question.
Last October I had my cholesterol checked and (gulp) it was 238. Last week I had it checked again (grin) it was 186. I even checked the calibration of the machine, and it was right-on. Now what puzzles me is that the only thing different I have done between now and then is Fat-Free Yoga. The techniques involve lots of postures with a strange type of nose-breathing----shallow, rythmical, with not a lot of involvment of the diaphragm---they call it "Breath of Fire". The "Yogi" implies that the nose-breathing helps the body give up many more toxins than just normal breathing. Could this type of breathing help my body to rid itself of cholesterol, or am I looking in the wrong place for my turn of fortune?
Thanks for the time,
Mal Wagner
What Happened to my Cholesterol???
Moderator: Available
-
Malcolm Wagner
- Posts: 155
- Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 6:01 am
- Location: Maurepas, La., USA
What Happened to my Cholesterol???
What western medicine teaches is that your cholesterol level is determined by your genetic makeup, diet (with saturated fat intake more important than actual cholesterol intake because most of your cholesterol you made yourself, and the rate of production is influenced by fat intake), level of exercise, drugs (alcohol or prescription) and the like (I think smoking and obesity are bad but not sure). Breathing doesn't enter into western discussions of lipid metabolism. There'd have to be some strange way it affected lipid metabolism because while toxins are eliminated by the breath, they're generally the gas waste product CO2. Cholesterol isn't going to be breathed out any more than butter will evaporate, as I'm sure you know. What the connection might be I haven't a clue.
I try to do two things when I'm faced with a lab result that doesn't make sense to me: 1) admit I don't have all the answers, or even a significant fraction of them, and 2) be skeptical. Every test has a margin of error. Perhaps your high value erred on the high side and the low value erred on the low side. The sample could have been collected in the wrong tube, or at the wrong time of day (the more accurate values discussed below should be taken fasting), or different assays could have been used.
The other thing is I don't much know what to do with a high total cholesterol except order more specific tests. The most important values to know are the specific HDL and LDL (high and low density, which turn out to be heart *H*ealthy and *L*ethal as a convenient memory aid) as well as triglyercide (fat)levels. High HDL is actually good for you. LDL you want to lower. I would place more stock in these values than the total figure, so find out what these are if you don't already know them.
I try to do two things when I'm faced with a lab result that doesn't make sense to me: 1) admit I don't have all the answers, or even a significant fraction of them, and 2) be skeptical. Every test has a margin of error. Perhaps your high value erred on the high side and the low value erred on the low side. The sample could have been collected in the wrong tube, or at the wrong time of day (the more accurate values discussed below should be taken fasting), or different assays could have been used.
The other thing is I don't much know what to do with a high total cholesterol except order more specific tests. The most important values to know are the specific HDL and LDL (high and low density, which turn out to be heart *H*ealthy and *L*ethal as a convenient memory aid) as well as triglyercide (fat)levels. High HDL is actually good for you. LDL you want to lower. I would place more stock in these values than the total figure, so find out what these are if you don't already know them.
-
Kevin Mackie
- Posts: 671
- Joined: Wed Sep 16, 1998 6:01 am
What Happened to my Cholesterol???
And get it checked again today and it will be 238. And get it checked at a different lab and it will be 186.
Did you fast? Did you exercise the day before? Does the yoga lower your overall stress level?
I recently read an informative book on the medical profession and monitoring of cholesteral was a topic that the author wrote about.
I'll try to refresh my memory a bit and find the book, but he wrote in essence, that worrying about a cholesteral level below 240 in healthy men with no history of coronary disease is a waste of time and energy. (unless you own stock in drug companies) He cited studies that showed conclusively that there was no correlation between increased risk of coronary disease and cholesteral below 240.
Let's hear from the medical people.
Kevin
Did you fast? Did you exercise the day before? Does the yoga lower your overall stress level?
I recently read an informative book on the medical profession and monitoring of cholesteral was a topic that the author wrote about.
I'll try to refresh my memory a bit and find the book, but he wrote in essence, that worrying about a cholesteral level below 240 in healthy men with no history of coronary disease is a waste of time and energy. (unless you own stock in drug companies) He cited studies that showed conclusively that there was no correlation between increased risk of coronary disease and cholesteral below 240.
Let's hear from the medical people.
Kevin
What Happened to my Cholesterol???
So what cholesterol level is too low?
What Happened to my Cholesterol???
As for the no-need-to-worry about a cholesterol below 240, I repeat my recommendation that the various subtypes be determined. I'd also advise people that not worrying about cholesterol UNTIL they have that "history of heart disease" is not safe:
The first heart attack can be fatal.
The first attack can cause permanent damage.
The first attack is a sign disease is far-progressed and you will be WAY behind in exercise and diet adjustments. It would be like starting to worry about your debt when you can no longer make the payments.
I just read the day before yesterday risk factors for heart disease predict deaths 20 years in advance. I've also known for some time you can see fatty lesions developing in the coronaries of american TEENS who die in accidents because our lifestyle is so unhealthy. PREVENTION. An ounce is worth a pound of cure, I'm told.
As for the question about what cholesterol is too low, the answer depends on which type. I've never heard of a too-low LDL. Certainly it would have to be related to some rare genetic disease; we americans eat more than we need and we can MAKE all that we need anyway. The low end of desirable HDL is 25ish, but cutoff points are arbitrary.
The first heart attack can be fatal.
The first attack can cause permanent damage.
The first attack is a sign disease is far-progressed and you will be WAY behind in exercise and diet adjustments. It would be like starting to worry about your debt when you can no longer make the payments.
I just read the day before yesterday risk factors for heart disease predict deaths 20 years in advance. I've also known for some time you can see fatty lesions developing in the coronaries of american TEENS who die in accidents because our lifestyle is so unhealthy. PREVENTION. An ounce is worth a pound of cure, I'm told.
As for the question about what cholesterol is too low, the answer depends on which type. I've never heard of a too-low LDL. Certainly it would have to be related to some rare genetic disease; we americans eat more than we need and we can MAKE all that we need anyway. The low end of desirable HDL is 25ish, but cutoff points are arbitrary.
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
What Happened to my Cholesterol???
Kevin
I might qualify some of those remarks, and reaffirm what Ian wrote.
Early in the investigation of the cholesterol phenomenon, people actually came up with curves that showed the relationship between total cholesterol level and risk of heart attack, stroke, etc. The curve has an exponential shape. Thus past 200, your incremental risk goes up a little from 200 to 225, a lot from 225 to 250, even more from 250 to 275, etc. If you only have total cholesterol to go on, then people often think of below 200 as OK, 200 to 250 as marginal, and greater than 250 as trouble.
Ian is right though. Our understanding of the underlying mechanisms has improved dramatically over the last few decades. Now we know that it isn't the cholesterol in eggs you need to worry about - it's the saturated fat. Your body breaks down most of the ingested cholesterol, but makes more LDL cholesterol from the saturated (and trans) fatty acids. As a rule of thumb, animal fats and man-made fats (hydrogenated) are to be avoided. Fish, nut, and vegetable fats help your lipid profile in various good ways. Furthermore, the LDL and HDL work in dynamic tension with each other. Your body makes the LDL so that you have important things like sex hormones. But it makes the HDL to clean up the excess LDL. Thus it's the ratio of total cholesteral to HDL cholesterol that is most important. Generally that ratio should between 3 and 5. Above 5 is unhealthy.
What cholesterol level is too low? That's a good question. Research suggests (but hasn't proven) that there is indeed an optimal range. For example, we know that people with very high cholesterol are at increased risk of occlusive stroke (blood clots clogging up the brain arteries), whereas those with very low cholesterol are at increased risk of hemorrhagic stroke (leaky brain blood vessels). Why the risk of hemorrhagic stroke with the low cholesterol? I don't think it's entirely understood, but it probably has something to do with the important function of lipids in maintaining the integrity of your blood vessels. You want enough building materials to keep the walls healthy, but not so much that you have the stuff laying around and clogging up the works.
There is also a known correlation between very low cholesterol numbers and risk of death. But that is an association that doesn't necessarily imply causality in all cases. Sometimes low cholesterol values occur with the presence of another disease like cancer. It's the cancer that kills you, not the vegetarian diet and the tofu that might produce a low cholesterol.
Again, the ratio is probably more important than the total cholesterol. A ratio below 3 should be something to be concerned about. But total cholesterol numbers can even be below 100 for some vegetarians. While they may be at risk for a certain kind of stroke, they are at lower risk for other coronary diseases, cancer, etc. So the net is another story.
After all is said and done, moderation is a word that comes to mind...
As for consistency of the tests, I think a good lab test should be pretty reproduceable. I've had my total cholesterol measured every year for the last 10 years. It has been consistently between 117 and 125. That's pretty darned consistent! It certainly speaks well for the test, given the fact that I could be causing some of that variability.
- Bill
I might qualify some of those remarks, and reaffirm what Ian wrote.
Early in the investigation of the cholesterol phenomenon, people actually came up with curves that showed the relationship between total cholesterol level and risk of heart attack, stroke, etc. The curve has an exponential shape. Thus past 200, your incremental risk goes up a little from 200 to 225, a lot from 225 to 250, even more from 250 to 275, etc. If you only have total cholesterol to go on, then people often think of below 200 as OK, 200 to 250 as marginal, and greater than 250 as trouble.
Ian is right though. Our understanding of the underlying mechanisms has improved dramatically over the last few decades. Now we know that it isn't the cholesterol in eggs you need to worry about - it's the saturated fat. Your body breaks down most of the ingested cholesterol, but makes more LDL cholesterol from the saturated (and trans) fatty acids. As a rule of thumb, animal fats and man-made fats (hydrogenated) are to be avoided. Fish, nut, and vegetable fats help your lipid profile in various good ways. Furthermore, the LDL and HDL work in dynamic tension with each other. Your body makes the LDL so that you have important things like sex hormones. But it makes the HDL to clean up the excess LDL. Thus it's the ratio of total cholesteral to HDL cholesterol that is most important. Generally that ratio should between 3 and 5. Above 5 is unhealthy.
What cholesterol level is too low? That's a good question. Research suggests (but hasn't proven) that there is indeed an optimal range. For example, we know that people with very high cholesterol are at increased risk of occlusive stroke (blood clots clogging up the brain arteries), whereas those with very low cholesterol are at increased risk of hemorrhagic stroke (leaky brain blood vessels). Why the risk of hemorrhagic stroke with the low cholesterol? I don't think it's entirely understood, but it probably has something to do with the important function of lipids in maintaining the integrity of your blood vessels. You want enough building materials to keep the walls healthy, but not so much that you have the stuff laying around and clogging up the works.
There is also a known correlation between very low cholesterol numbers and risk of death. But that is an association that doesn't necessarily imply causality in all cases. Sometimes low cholesterol values occur with the presence of another disease like cancer. It's the cancer that kills you, not the vegetarian diet and the tofu that might produce a low cholesterol.
Again, the ratio is probably more important than the total cholesterol. A ratio below 3 should be something to be concerned about. But total cholesterol numbers can even be below 100 for some vegetarians. While they may be at risk for a certain kind of stroke, they are at lower risk for other coronary diseases, cancer, etc. So the net is another story.
After all is said and done, moderation is a word that comes to mind...
As for consistency of the tests, I think a good lab test should be pretty reproduceable. I've had my total cholesterol measured every year for the last 10 years. It has been consistently between 117 and 125. That's pretty darned consistent! It certainly speaks well for the test, given the fact that I could be causing some of that variability.
- Bill
-
Malcolm Wagner
- Posts: 155
- Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 6:01 am
- Location: Maurepas, La., USA
What Happened to my Cholesterol???
Bill and Ian,
Thank you both for the info. Kevin brings up an interesting question:
"Does the yoga lower your overall stress level?"
Why, yes it does, thanks for asking
Have any studies been done as to what extent stress-reducing exercise (like Yoga or Tai Chi) can have on LDL/HDL levels? (I mean actual numbers generated?)
Also, what about the effect of hard-style exercises, like karate or football, on the levels? Interesting to note that many "hard-stylists" in Goju-Ryu have given themselves coronaries and strokes.("Hey buddy,you better soften-up your Sanchin"
In the Arts,
Mal Wagner
Thank you both for the info. Kevin brings up an interesting question:
"Does the yoga lower your overall stress level?"
Why, yes it does, thanks for asking
Have any studies been done as to what extent stress-reducing exercise (like Yoga or Tai Chi) can have on LDL/HDL levels? (I mean actual numbers generated?)
Also, what about the effect of hard-style exercises, like karate or football, on the levels? Interesting to note that many "hard-stylists" in Goju-Ryu have given themselves coronaries and strokes.("Hey buddy,you better soften-up your Sanchin"
In the Arts,
Mal Wagner
-
Malcolm Wagner
- Posts: 155
- Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 6:01 am
- Location: Maurepas, La., USA
What Happened to my Cholesterol???
Ian, you wrote,
"Breathing doesn't enter into western discussions of lipid metabolism. There'd have to be some strange way it affected lipid metabolism because while toxins are eliminated by the breath, they're generally the gas waste product CO2. Cholesterol isn't going to be breathed out any more than butter will evaporate, as I'm sure you know. What the connection might be I haven't a clue."
What about the relative acidosis or alkalosis of the blood, brought on by differing respiratory patterns (like the "Breath of Fire" described above). Could these increased levels of acids or bases cause a (more-than-usual) breakdown of cholesterol in the blood?
Thanks,
Mal
"Breathing doesn't enter into western discussions of lipid metabolism. There'd have to be some strange way it affected lipid metabolism because while toxins are eliminated by the breath, they're generally the gas waste product CO2. Cholesterol isn't going to be breathed out any more than butter will evaporate, as I'm sure you know. What the connection might be I haven't a clue."
What about the relative acidosis or alkalosis of the blood, brought on by differing respiratory patterns (like the "Breath of Fire" described above). Could these increased levels of acids or bases cause a (more-than-usual) breakdown of cholesterol in the blood?
Thanks,
Mal
What Happened to my Cholesterol???
Acid Base balance as it pertains to cholesterol metabolism has never come up in school. (Doesn't mean its not a factor). Again I think this is because the changes in coronary arteries develop over decades and breathing related acid base changes are very short lived. Just the same way a piece of cake you ate 20 years ago isn't affecting you today. It's the long term trends--daily cake. The big long term trend that we don't really measure right now that affects your cholesterol metabolism is how quickly you oxidize it. Oxidized cholesterol tends to get stuck in arteries and cause these irritated plaques of goo your cells can't retrieve well. Homocysteine levels and chlamydial infections are other potentially important factors in heart disease we don't follow--yet.
Bill, what is a health care resources / expenditures guru getting a good cholesterol checked every year, especially since its so stable?
Bill, what is a health care resources / expenditures guru getting a good cholesterol checked every year, especially since its so stable?
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
What Happened to my Cholesterol???
Ian
That's a darned good question. That's what I keep asking my company that will only give me a "healthy returns" discount on my insurance if I am assessed yearly (for lipid profile, weight, blood pressure, and smoking status). Same with my wife, who similarly is healthy as an ox and can only contribute to the discount amount if she is tested. Since we blow the test results away each year, it's stupid not to take advantage of the discount. Since the data are there, I keep track. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
In general, exercise has been shown to increase the "good" cholesterol (HDL). Whether it is football or karate or aerobics or walking, it has a proven positive benefit on lipid profile. Generally the aerobic type exercise is most associated with the positive benefits. However resistance training increases muscle mass which increases BMR which can lower body fat which can have a positive effect on lipid profile. Bottom line...any "hard" exercise regimen is likely to have a greater effect on lipid profile than yoga.
The link between the yoga and any potential benefit is likely strictly due to the lowering of stress. There are articles in the literature that have linked yoga to positive cardiac health benefits. The link between breathing and any effects like cholesterol level has nothing to do with gas exchange per se. Rather, the connection - if it exists - is likely due to effects of breathing exercises on the tone of the autonomic nervous system (i.e. stress reduction). Stress is a known risk factor for CAD. Whether it effects lipid levels or not, I don't know. It might. It certainly has a beneficial effect on blood pressure, which is associated with risk for CAD.
Kevin
I thought about your comments above concerning marginal (200-250) cholesterol levels and CAD/stroke risk. There is some truth to what you wrote. Basically cardiovascular disease, CAD, and stroke risk is a multifactorial proposition. The risk factors include genetics, smoking, blood pressure, lipid profile, stress, weight, inflammation caused by specific infections, personality type, and others. Someone can have a marginal level of one risk factor, be clean on the others, and end up with virtually no risk. So a single measure doesn't give you a lot of confidence for computing future risk. The best risk models include all these factors.
- Bill
That's a darned good question. That's what I keep asking my company that will only give me a "healthy returns" discount on my insurance if I am assessed yearly (for lipid profile, weight, blood pressure, and smoking status). Same with my wife, who similarly is healthy as an ox and can only contribute to the discount amount if she is tested. Since we blow the test results away each year, it's stupid not to take advantage of the discount. Since the data are there, I keep track. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
This sanchin breathing business has created more trouble over so much misinformation.... There is no evidence that Goju sanchin breathing has negative health benefits. If you find anything in the peer-reviewed literature, let me know. You won't... Folks who don’t do Goju and who don’t know physiology perpetuate all this misinformation. I practice the ibuki breathing - with and without sanchin - and am a systems physiologist. It hasn't hurt my cholesterol (120), my blood pressure (resting at 110/70) or any other aspect of my health (although I am but a single anecdote). I wrote an article on this that is elsewhere on this web page. If anything, properly performed ibuki breathing has a positive health benefit similar to the benefit achieved by breathing exercises in yoga.Also, what about the effect of hard-style exercises, like karate or football, on the levels? Interesting to note that many "hard-stylists" in Goju-Ryu have given themselves coronaries and strokes.("Hey buddy,you better soften-up your Sanchin"
In general, exercise has been shown to increase the "good" cholesterol (HDL). Whether it is football or karate or aerobics or walking, it has a proven positive benefit on lipid profile. Generally the aerobic type exercise is most associated with the positive benefits. However resistance training increases muscle mass which increases BMR which can lower body fat which can have a positive effect on lipid profile. Bottom line...any "hard" exercise regimen is likely to have a greater effect on lipid profile than yoga.
The link between the yoga and any potential benefit is likely strictly due to the lowering of stress. There are articles in the literature that have linked yoga to positive cardiac health benefits. The link between breathing and any effects like cholesterol level has nothing to do with gas exchange per se. Rather, the connection - if it exists - is likely due to effects of breathing exercises on the tone of the autonomic nervous system (i.e. stress reduction). Stress is a known risk factor for CAD. Whether it effects lipid levels or not, I don't know. It might. It certainly has a beneficial effect on blood pressure, which is associated with risk for CAD.
Kevin
I thought about your comments above concerning marginal (200-250) cholesterol levels and CAD/stroke risk. There is some truth to what you wrote. Basically cardiovascular disease, CAD, and stroke risk is a multifactorial proposition. The risk factors include genetics, smoking, blood pressure, lipid profile, stress, weight, inflammation caused by specific infections, personality type, and others. Someone can have a marginal level of one risk factor, be clean on the others, and end up with virtually no risk. So a single measure doesn't give you a lot of confidence for computing future risk. The best risk models include all these factors.
- Bill
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
What Happened to my Cholesterol???
This is a review article on the subject:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10390658&dopt=Abstract
Here is an article that shows a lipid connection.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10327777&dopt=Abstract
Many of the articles on this subject are in the Indian Heart Journal - no surprise there.
- Bill
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10390658&dopt=Abstract
Here is an article that shows a lipid connection.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10327777&dopt=Abstract
Many of the articles on this subject are in the Indian Heart Journal - no surprise there.
- Bill
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
What Happened to my Cholesterol???
Jcseer
My company has a contract with LabCorp to do labs for our HMO products. We've been doing some research on these lab values lately, and I ran across the LabCorp web site while trying to clean up some bad data. Here is a very general link on lipids with lots of good data.
http://www.labcorp.com/datasets/labcorp/html/appendix_group/appendix/section/ri600500.htm#ri600500
In reference to your question about what is "too low", our data feeds indicate that to be a value below 100 mg/Dl. However remember that a "low" cholesterol value strikes concern in the clinician not because of the increased risk it causes (increased risk of hemorrhagic stroke), but rather its association with other conditions like cancer or poor liver function that cause the low cholesterol value.
http://www.labcorp.com/datasets/labcorp/html/chapter/mono/pr003300.htm
The better test is the lipid panel with ratio. This shows the good (HDL) and bad (LDL) cholesterol values, and the ratio. The ratio is probably the value most associated with risk for CAD and stroke. Again, a "normal" ratio is 3-5, with above 5 being high risk for the circulatory diseases.
http://www.labcorp.com/datasets/labcorp/html/chapter/mono/sc033000.htm
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited March 26, 2001).]
My company has a contract with LabCorp to do labs for our HMO products. We've been doing some research on these lab values lately, and I ran across the LabCorp web site while trying to clean up some bad data. Here is a very general link on lipids with lots of good data.
http://www.labcorp.com/datasets/labcorp/html/appendix_group/appendix/section/ri600500.htm#ri600500
In reference to your question about what is "too low", our data feeds indicate that to be a value below 100 mg/Dl. However remember that a "low" cholesterol value strikes concern in the clinician not because of the increased risk it causes (increased risk of hemorrhagic stroke), but rather its association with other conditions like cancer or poor liver function that cause the low cholesterol value.
http://www.labcorp.com/datasets/labcorp/html/chapter/mono/pr003300.htm
The better test is the lipid panel with ratio. This shows the good (HDL) and bad (LDL) cholesterol values, and the ratio. The ratio is probably the value most associated with risk for CAD and stroke. Again, a "normal" ratio is 3-5, with above 5 being high risk for the circulatory diseases.
http://www.labcorp.com/datasets/labcorp/html/chapter/mono/sc033000.htm
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited March 26, 2001).]
