Should a teacher boast about his ability?
How often should he do so?
Is he required to prove what he claims he can do?
Colin 8 of 8
I have stocked up on aspirin.
Teacher says, “I can kill a man from the next zip code”
Moderator: Available
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Colin 8 of 8
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- Location: Portsmouth Hampshire UK
Teacher says, “I can kill a man from the next zip code”
This question is about boasting and it’s place in the dojo.
Should a teacher boast about his ability?
How often should he do so?
Is he required to prove what he claims he can do?
Colin 8 of 8
I have stocked up on aspirin.
Should a teacher boast about his ability?
How often should he do so?
Is he required to prove what he claims he can do?
Colin 8 of 8
I have stocked up on aspirin.
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Allen M.
Teacher says, “I can kill a man from the next zip code”
Teachers who live in pompous fantasy-land are a disservice to their students. Remember that after awhile students become like their teachers. Teach students crap and they know crap.
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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
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Jake Steinmann
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- Location: Newton, MA
- Contact:
Teacher says, “I can kill a man from the next zip code”
I've studied with teachers who had a real gift for outlandish stories.
While they're entertaining...they are damaging, and really do the students very little good, except to transfer the instructors ego on them.
In short:
"Should a teacher boast about his ability? "
No
"How often should he do so?"
Never
"Is he required to prove what he claims he can do?"
If he's claiming to be able to kill people in the next postal code, no probably not.
On the other hand, there is something to be said for the "Show me, don't tell me" school of thought.
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Jake Steinmann
PDR Team
www.tonyblauer.com
While they're entertaining...they are damaging, and really do the students very little good, except to transfer the instructors ego on them.
In short:
"Should a teacher boast about his ability? "
No
"How often should he do so?"
Never
"Is he required to prove what he claims he can do?"
If he's claiming to be able to kill people in the next postal code, no probably not.
On the other hand, there is something to be said for the "Show me, don't tell me" school of thought.
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Jake Steinmann
PDR Team
www.tonyblauer.com
Teacher says, “I can kill a man from the next zip code”
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
For example I think we should have an elite Uechi group, within the upcoming tournament, to compete a la Sabaki method, so they can really impress their students. I’d like to see some take on Gary Khoury in a Sabaki match, especially after his co-working with Mr. Iwakura, Sabaki Challenge world champion. Good luck.
I’d really be impressed.
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Van Canna
LOL_ Bill, how about giving us an idea on the difference? Just for laughs, I am not trying to be sassy. Very good distinction though. Some have told me that “girls” is what they are after__ real women take too much work to satisfy.This is done to stroke the ego and/or find lots of girls (not women...) to sleep with.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
An informed student, not a sheeple-ka, will soon be able to distinguish between dojo substance and street substance. Some real tough senseis in the dojo, fold up like match sticks out on the street or in real sparring. Like the Sabaki challenge, instead of WKF__ fluff.But in the end, there must be substance beneath the veneer, or the talk will be silenced.
For example I think we should have an elite Uechi group, within the upcoming tournament, to compete a la Sabaki method, so they can really impress their students. I’d like to see some take on Gary Khoury in a Sabaki match, especially after his co-working with Mr. Iwakura, Sabaki Challenge world champion. Good luck.
I’d really be impressed.
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Van Canna
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Bill Glasheen
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- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Teacher says, “I can kill a man from the next zip code”
Van
Regarding girls vs. women... There's a time to comment, and a time to smile. Not gonna go there.
Sheeple-ka - that's good! To some extent, this is a two-way street. Some people want to learn, and some want heroes to associate themselves with or worship. If it weren't for the sheep, there wouldn't be any cult leaders.
What the braggarts should do is look at an NBA coach like Phil Jackson. He is today a cripple from a B-rate career of his own. The man hobbles from knee and back problems. And yet he helped corral the Chicago Bulls dynasty, and is in the process of creating another in Los Angeles. Coach Jackson doesn't try to impress the likes of Michael Jordan, Shaquille O'Neal, and Kobe Bryant. Instead, he focuses on bringing the best out of individuals and creating a team.
Coach Jackson's success - as a coach - speaks for itself. There are more than a few martial arts teachers that I similarly admire. I will not embarrass them, but they know who they are. They are teachers and leaders in every sense.
- Bill
Regarding girls vs. women... There's a time to comment, and a time to smile. Not gonna go there.
Sheeple-ka - that's good! To some extent, this is a two-way street. Some people want to learn, and some want heroes to associate themselves with or worship. If it weren't for the sheep, there wouldn't be any cult leaders.
What the braggarts should do is look at an NBA coach like Phil Jackson. He is today a cripple from a B-rate career of his own. The man hobbles from knee and back problems. And yet he helped corral the Chicago Bulls dynasty, and is in the process of creating another in Los Angeles. Coach Jackson doesn't try to impress the likes of Michael Jordan, Shaquille O'Neal, and Kobe Bryant. Instead, he focuses on bringing the best out of individuals and creating a team.
Coach Jackson's success - as a coach - speaks for itself. There are more than a few martial arts teachers that I similarly admire. I will not embarrass them, but they know who they are. They are teachers and leaders in every sense.
- Bill
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Teacher says, “I can kill a man from the next zip code”
We all hate the extreme examples. But there are definitely gray areas here.
A teacher is supposed to pass knowledge on to the student. Occasionally a teacher may use an example of an ability to create a goal that a student strives to achieve. If it makes the student try harder, then it is a useful tool. Of course - like Jake - I prefer the Missouri approach - SHOW ME! One decent demonstration is much more effective than multiple claims of physical prowess. There will be an occasion though where an "application" (a self-defense incident) can only be communicated by language as opposed to example.
Most of the problems lie with the motives and insecurities of the instructor. Some people use the role of "teacher" to create admiration societies. This is done to stroke the ego and/or find lots of girls (not women...) to sleep with. Occasionally instructors that aren't confident with their authoritarian role will use bragging and claims to cajole respect and/or fear in the students. In either case, the quality of the students retained becomes a reflection of the pathology of the instructor. Foolish claims will attract and retain fools. Fraternization will result in a group of boorish males and few (if any) quality female participants.
I will say though that there is a place for bragging in the fighting arts. And what do I mean by that? Well language itself is a tool, and can be used to enhance the warrior's arsenal. Muhammad Ali comes to mind. Trash talking can be used to intimidate the opponent. Sometimes the trash talking is not the weapon per se, but rather a reflection of the confidence within. And sometimes trash talking is mere entertainment, designed to keep the student's or paying customer's attention. It is just one of those odd manifestations of testosterone. But in the end, there must be substance beneath the veneer, or the talk will be silenced.
- Bill
A teacher is supposed to pass knowledge on to the student. Occasionally a teacher may use an example of an ability to create a goal that a student strives to achieve. If it makes the student try harder, then it is a useful tool. Of course - like Jake - I prefer the Missouri approach - SHOW ME! One decent demonstration is much more effective than multiple claims of physical prowess. There will be an occasion though where an "application" (a self-defense incident) can only be communicated by language as opposed to example.
Most of the problems lie with the motives and insecurities of the instructor. Some people use the role of "teacher" to create admiration societies. This is done to stroke the ego and/or find lots of girls (not women...) to sleep with. Occasionally instructors that aren't confident with their authoritarian role will use bragging and claims to cajole respect and/or fear in the students. In either case, the quality of the students retained becomes a reflection of the pathology of the instructor. Foolish claims will attract and retain fools. Fraternization will result in a group of boorish males and few (if any) quality female participants.
I will say though that there is a place for bragging in the fighting arts. And what do I mean by that? Well language itself is a tool, and can be used to enhance the warrior's arsenal. Muhammad Ali comes to mind. Trash talking can be used to intimidate the opponent. Sometimes the trash talking is not the weapon per se, but rather a reflection of the confidence within. And sometimes trash talking is mere entertainment, designed to keep the student's or paying customer's attention. It is just one of those odd manifestations of testosterone. But in the end, there must be substance beneath the veneer, or the talk will be silenced.
- Bill
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Colin 8 of 8
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- Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: Portsmouth Hampshire UK
Teacher says, “I can kill a man from the next zip code”
When I was at school I learned gymnastics from a 6’ 2” bodybuilder and wrestling from a 5’ 3” old woman. Often the best teachers are those who can not do what they teach.
How dose the ability to knock people out without touching them help someone teach me basic techniques.
Colin 8 of 8
How dose the ability to knock people out without touching them help someone teach me basic techniques.
Colin 8 of 8
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Roy Bedard
- Posts: 79
- Joined: Sun Sep 20, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: Tallahassee, FL USA
- Contact:
Teacher says, “I can kill a man from the next zip code”
Van,
Ordinarily I follow what you are saying on these threads and I enjoy your often brazen commentary. However, that last comparison between 'Sabaki' and 'WKF fluff' was an irresponsible and misleading statement.
Once again, the solid distinction between the authentic 'sport' of Karate (i.e W.K.F. which is sanctioned by the highest sport authority - the IOC), the authentic act of 'true combat' (i.e., the act of gouging, biting, breaking bones or even forcing a high velocity piece of metal into the assailant's chest or head) and some other psuedo-hybrid sport/combat (i.e. Sabaki, UFC etc. ad nauseum) is clouded by your comment.
The failure to make a distinction between these martial categories is that our art, our science and our sport all suffer from the dissillunionment made by careless statements. We end up with athletes believing they are warriors, warriors believing they are athletes and knuckleheads profitting from the confusion.
Combat has never been defined in terms of points and Athletic Competition is never defined in terms of injuries or casualties. These UFC/Sabaki style competitions are the worst sort of martial activities because they tend to blur the line ever so intentionally. Don't get me wrong. I enjoy watching them too, but I, like you have the background to appreciate that these are not "real fights" as the promoters would have us believe. Remember that there is still a huge segment of our population that believes the WWF is real. Consider that many of them follow these threads.
Please help me educate our audience in the distinction between these things.You have fought competitively for years and you understand it better than most. I look forward to reading more of your educated comments.
Roy
Ordinarily I follow what you are saying on these threads and I enjoy your often brazen commentary. However, that last comparison between 'Sabaki' and 'WKF fluff' was an irresponsible and misleading statement.
Once again, the solid distinction between the authentic 'sport' of Karate (i.e W.K.F. which is sanctioned by the highest sport authority - the IOC), the authentic act of 'true combat' (i.e., the act of gouging, biting, breaking bones or even forcing a high velocity piece of metal into the assailant's chest or head) and some other psuedo-hybrid sport/combat (i.e. Sabaki, UFC etc. ad nauseum) is clouded by your comment.
The failure to make a distinction between these martial categories is that our art, our science and our sport all suffer from the dissillunionment made by careless statements. We end up with athletes believing they are warriors, warriors believing they are athletes and knuckleheads profitting from the confusion.
Combat has never been defined in terms of points and Athletic Competition is never defined in terms of injuries or casualties. These UFC/Sabaki style competitions are the worst sort of martial activities because they tend to blur the line ever so intentionally. Don't get me wrong. I enjoy watching them too, but I, like you have the background to appreciate that these are not "real fights" as the promoters would have us believe. Remember that there is still a huge segment of our population that believes the WWF is real. Consider that many of them follow these threads.
Please help me educate our audience in the distinction between these things.You have fought competitively for years and you understand it better than most. I look forward to reading more of your educated comments.
Roy
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Teacher says, “I can kill a man from the next zip code”
It's always an honor to have the best over for tea and a chat. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
On the one hand...
There are those that believe that martial movement and defense can be powered by a type of energy (chi, qi, ki, prana, "the force", etc.) not explained by traditional anatomy, physiology, biochemistry, and physics. The source of this belief is in a very old Asian paradigm of physical makeup that includes energy meridians with points of access and/or manipulation. There has been an interesting game going on between the believers and the traditional scientists. The believers attempt to show something not yet explained by modern science. The scientists explain the phenomenon, or demonstrate it doesn't exist as stated. Slowly but surely, what "it" is and what "it" is not is being deciphered.
And then along comes a school of Chinese healing and fighting that demonstrates that healing/destruction can be accomplished without the practitioner actually touching the recipient. How could that be?? If the believers show this to be true, there could indeed be a paradigm shift in how we view biological energetics.
Trust me...there are true believers of this art.
If that is so, then it validates methods of martial training that seek to strengthen this undefined energy source. It validates their paradigm of what "basic technique" can be powered by. It validates their paradigm of what we seek to disrupt when attacking an opponent.
A few summers ago, a martial artist trained in this brand of energetics kindly agreed to submit his methods to a randomized, controlled trial at our yearly camp. The results were negative. Many still believe, and the practitioners of this art of no-touch energy (correctly) claim that one experiment doesn't negate the whole body of information. But so far...I still consider "the force" to be entertainment.
On the other hand...
No matter what the discipline, many of us chase ghosts. There are many among us who want to stay young, strong, virile, and beautiful forever. It's a nice dream. We read magazines with beautiful people holding up bottles of the latest stuff by Joe Weiderhead, and we believe we will look like them if we eat that crap. We give them a lot of money, and we still look the same. We drink Gatorade because we want to be like Mike. But...still can't dunk a basketball. We sign up for lessons after watching fantastic demonstrations o' doom (TM). After two years, we can't make that a$$hole drop when we want him to...
All of us dream a bit inside. The greatest inventors were dreamers. But somewhere the 98% perspiration has to come in play with a mere 2% of useful inspiration. If either is lacking, we have wasted our time. Too bad if the critical missing factor is a mere 2%... Too bad if we thought that 2% was going to give us the whole deal... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
I personally believe there is "something" to what some of the "chi-sters" are doing. I believe there are mind-body abilities that we are just now beginning to understand better in both medicine and fighting. But I also believe we can waste a lot of time chasing ghosts and proving the useless.
Life is short and money is scarce. Buyer beware! <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
I don't expect a consensus on either end.
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited March 30, 2001).]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quoteThis appears to be the heart of the thread you started, Colin. Allow me to play both sides of this issue.How dose the ability to knock people out without touching them help someone teach me basic techniques.
On the one hand...
There are those that believe that martial movement and defense can be powered by a type of energy (chi, qi, ki, prana, "the force", etc.) not explained by traditional anatomy, physiology, biochemistry, and physics. The source of this belief is in a very old Asian paradigm of physical makeup that includes energy meridians with points of access and/or manipulation. There has been an interesting game going on between the believers and the traditional scientists. The believers attempt to show something not yet explained by modern science. The scientists explain the phenomenon, or demonstrate it doesn't exist as stated. Slowly but surely, what "it" is and what "it" is not is being deciphered.
And then along comes a school of Chinese healing and fighting that demonstrates that healing/destruction can be accomplished without the practitioner actually touching the recipient. How could that be?? If the believers show this to be true, there could indeed be a paradigm shift in how we view biological energetics.
Trust me...there are true believers of this art.
If that is so, then it validates methods of martial training that seek to strengthen this undefined energy source. It validates their paradigm of what "basic technique" can be powered by. It validates their paradigm of what we seek to disrupt when attacking an opponent.
A few summers ago, a martial artist trained in this brand of energetics kindly agreed to submit his methods to a randomized, controlled trial at our yearly camp. The results were negative. Many still believe, and the practitioners of this art of no-touch energy (correctly) claim that one experiment doesn't negate the whole body of information. But so far...I still consider "the force" to be entertainment.
On the other hand...
No matter what the discipline, many of us chase ghosts. There are many among us who want to stay young, strong, virile, and beautiful forever. It's a nice dream. We read magazines with beautiful people holding up bottles of the latest stuff by Joe Weiderhead, and we believe we will look like them if we eat that crap. We give them a lot of money, and we still look the same. We drink Gatorade because we want to be like Mike. But...still can't dunk a basketball. We sign up for lessons after watching fantastic demonstrations o' doom (TM). After two years, we can't make that a$$hole drop when we want him to...
All of us dream a bit inside. The greatest inventors were dreamers. But somewhere the 98% perspiration has to come in play with a mere 2% of useful inspiration. If either is lacking, we have wasted our time. Too bad if the critical missing factor is a mere 2%... Too bad if we thought that 2% was going to give us the whole deal... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Case in point!Remember that there is still a huge segment of our population that believes the WWF is real.
I personally believe there is "something" to what some of the "chi-sters" are doing. I believe there are mind-body abilities that we are just now beginning to understand better in both medicine and fighting. But I also believe we can waste a lot of time chasing ghosts and proving the useless.
Life is short and money is scarce. Buyer beware! <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Thief!!I think you know me enough by now to understand that there is a method to my madness of riling people up so they are booted awake from their torpor.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quoteAhhh, but there's the rub! Been there, caused that!our art, our science and our sport all suffer from the dissillunionment made by careless statements. We end up with...knuckleheads profitting from the confusion.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quoteThere is one element missing here, Roy. That would be entertainment. This is why the WWF exists; Joe Sixpack and his mutants need something to watch in the trailer park. This is why Gladiator won Best Picture. This - and the money that drives it - is what turns the clear water into muck like the Boston Harbor. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quoteCombat has never been defined in terms of points and Athletic Competition is never defined in terms of injuries or casualties. These UFC/Sabaki style competitions are the worst sort of martial activities because they tend to blur the line ever so intentionally.
To what end? To prove what methods work? (I'm a scientist - I pay attention to the law of large numbers, selection bias, etc, etc.) To showcase our own elite? To improve our art? Our training methods? Other reasons? Will competitions like these achieve those ends?If it could be arranged liability wise, do you think it would be a good idea to have an elite Uechi team fight under Sabaki or full contact rules?
I don't expect a consensus on either end.
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited March 30, 2001).]
Teacher says, “I can kill a man from the next zip code”
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Many people study the Martial Arts and purport to act in this fashion if the need should ever arise. We all train to be the best we can be, and that we should never settle for “this good” is “good enough”.
How do you know if you can become ferocious when it is “all on the line”?
The participants in these UFC, NHB and Tai Sabaki fights have a few things in common; are mostly in their middle 20’s to middle 30’s in age, have been either studying Martial Arts or fighting since childhood, and have a keen desire to test their ability within the means of the law. These fighter will have no doubt, that when they need to be ferocious, when it is all on the line, they will perform adequately. Some of these guys would have been gladiators if they were born in that era.
The next best way to test your abilities is the sport of karate, or the WKF. This competition is still no easy walk in the park. There have been some accidental injuries to some participants that would have put me out of work for weeks if I had had incurred one while I was fighting. However, this is the probably the safest way to “prove you can walk the talk”.
When I first heard there was going to be an XFL (Extreme Football League for those who haven’t heard about it yet) I imagined all sorts of nasty things one team could do to prevent the other team from moving the ball down the field. Same thing goes for the team trying to move down the field. Imagine the game where there were these rules; offensive players were allowed to tackle anybody to stop them from getting to your ball carrier, defensive players could tackle the receivers while they are running down the field, no holding penalties, no facemask penalties, the player with the ball is not considered stopped until he can no longer physically move forward. This type of game reminds me of a movie I saw where there was a futuristic game something like a combination of hockey and soccer. The object was to stuff a ball in a goal and there were not many rules to for the defenders to adhere to. (the name of this movie escapes me right now, I am sure someone else has seen it too.
Alas though, this is not the way XFL games are played. I am certain though, that if it they started a football league with these rulkes…er…lack of rules, there would be many men out there willing to join.
If there are some of the younger, talented Uechi-ryu fighters like Joe Pomfret, who wish to explore the “dangerous side” of their abilities, I say good luck and be safe. I know I will watch and gloat with glee when he wins, and stand by and praise his efforts if he loses, but I surely hope I don’t have to ever go visit him in the hospital.
I am content to train as hard as I can, for as long as I can, with no other mindset than Gosato Bokuto and Lord help the cretins that want to be the first to test me “when everything is on the line”.
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Len
Gosato Bokuto. def. Live life easy and peacefully, but when it is time to fight become ferocious.snip...the authentic act of 'true combat' (i.e., the act of gouging, biting, breaking bones or even forcing a high velocity piece of metal into the assailant's chest or head...snip
Many people study the Martial Arts and purport to act in this fashion if the need should ever arise. We all train to be the best we can be, and that we should never settle for “this good” is “good enough”.
How do you know if you can become ferocious when it is “all on the line”?
The participants in these UFC, NHB and Tai Sabaki fights have a few things in common; are mostly in their middle 20’s to middle 30’s in age, have been either studying Martial Arts or fighting since childhood, and have a keen desire to test their ability within the means of the law. These fighter will have no doubt, that when they need to be ferocious, when it is all on the line, they will perform adequately. Some of these guys would have been gladiators if they were born in that era.
The next best way to test your abilities is the sport of karate, or the WKF. This competition is still no easy walk in the park. There have been some accidental injuries to some participants that would have put me out of work for weeks if I had had incurred one while I was fighting. However, this is the probably the safest way to “prove you can walk the talk”.
When I first heard there was going to be an XFL (Extreme Football League for those who haven’t heard about it yet) I imagined all sorts of nasty things one team could do to prevent the other team from moving the ball down the field. Same thing goes for the team trying to move down the field. Imagine the game where there were these rules; offensive players were allowed to tackle anybody to stop them from getting to your ball carrier, defensive players could tackle the receivers while they are running down the field, no holding penalties, no facemask penalties, the player with the ball is not considered stopped until he can no longer physically move forward. This type of game reminds me of a movie I saw where there was a futuristic game something like a combination of hockey and soccer. The object was to stuff a ball in a goal and there were not many rules to for the defenders to adhere to. (the name of this movie escapes me right now, I am sure someone else has seen it too.
Alas though, this is not the way XFL games are played. I am certain though, that if it they started a football league with these rulkes…er…lack of rules, there would be many men out there willing to join.
If there are some of the younger, talented Uechi-ryu fighters like Joe Pomfret, who wish to explore the “dangerous side” of their abilities, I say good luck and be safe. I know I will watch and gloat with glee when he wins, and stand by and praise his efforts if he loses, but I surely hope I don’t have to ever go visit him in the hospital.
I am content to train as hard as I can, for as long as I can, with no other mindset than Gosato Bokuto and Lord help the cretins that want to be the first to test me “when everything is on the line”.
------------------
Len
Teacher says, “I can kill a man from the next zip code”
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Master Sken, in a recent demonstration in Italy to a packed audience, stated that the field of survival in real street confrontations is dominated by the determined practitioner of the most demanding contact competition. The explosive power shots in the giving and receiving ends, even though under some sort of “safety rule”, hardens body and mind to defeat and eliminate the adversary through the imposition of your own will to win/survive over that of your adversary.
Not losing often means to suffer less body lesions than your opponent.
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Van Canna
Good questions..here is a partial answer:To what end? To prove what methods work? (I'm a scientist - I pay attention to the law of large numbers, selection bias, etc, etc.) To showcase our own elite? To improve our art? Our training methods? Other reasons? Will competitions like these achieve those ends?
Master Sken, in a recent demonstration in Italy to a packed audience, stated that the field of survival in real street confrontations is dominated by the determined practitioner of the most demanding contact competition. The explosive power shots in the giving and receiving ends, even though under some sort of “safety rule”, hardens body and mind to defeat and eliminate the adversary through the imposition of your own will to win/survive over that of your adversary.
Not losing often means to suffer less body lesions than your opponent.
------------------
Van Canna
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Roy Bedard
- Posts: 79
- Joined: Sun Sep 20, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: Tallahassee, FL USA
- Contact:
Teacher says, “I can kill a man from the next zip code”
Van,
KUDO's for tickling me out of the hole!I should have known as much. At first I thought your PC was hijacked by a Soldier of Fortune but alas, I am pleasently surprised to see you can still score with that sneaky reverse punch.
Bill,
You're definately zeroing in on the reason and purpose of many of these people who get involved in these showcase events. They are looking for 'proof' that somehow, some style is better than some other style. That's the tragedy, they just can't seem to get it. No matter how much logic you hit them with it seems that their linear thinking pattern stifles a true understanding of this complex issue. That is what we were talking about before.
It's a false science to believe that somehow some form of combat can be necessarily considered better than some other form by using these outrageous, overhyped, televised death match events.
Roy
KUDO's for tickling me out of the hole!I should have known as much. At first I thought your PC was hijacked by a Soldier of Fortune but alas, I am pleasently surprised to see you can still score with that sneaky reverse punch.
Bill,
You're definately zeroing in on the reason and purpose of many of these people who get involved in these showcase events. They are looking for 'proof' that somehow, some style is better than some other style. That's the tragedy, they just can't seem to get it. No matter how much logic you hit them with it seems that their linear thinking pattern stifles a true understanding of this complex issue. That is what we were talking about before.
It's a false science to believe that somehow some form of combat can be necessarily considered better than some other form by using these outrageous, overhyped, televised death match events.
Roy
Teacher says, “I can kill a man from the next zip code”
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
What I like about Master Ninomya of the Sabaki method is that he comes clean on the issue.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> My feeling is that you cannot recreate an “actual” fighting tournament that tries to recreate a life or death encounter on the street. In a real struggle you cannot anticipate the surroundings, weapons or number of opponents. You never know if such fight will take place in a hallway, alley, or open field. When a fighter’s life is threatened he may resort to using a broken piece of glass, gouging an opponent’s eye, or even biting in order to survive. That’s why tournaments that put opponents on a cage, or ring, or between lines and promise a fight to the finish cannot deliver real life or death fighting. As long as there is concern for human life, there will be rules.
The tradition of Budo developed not for the purpose of creating the most efficient predatory animal possible, but to develop the greatest human character. Those with strong character always impose rules on themselves. Those rules are designed to bring out the best qualities of both spirit and discipline. The Sabaki challenge has developed its rules and fighting format to reinforce the very best qualities of karate_ spirit, power, and technique.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That’s really where it’s at, if you give it some thought. Wish some of you had had the privilege of fighting against the likes of Taro Tanaka and Moto Yamakura, collegiate champions under master Tada, of Japan, a Samurai descendant. Their fighting was the same as the Sabaki method and they embodied the above principles through fierce action the likes of which I have not seen anywhere else.
Moto and Taro and master Ninomya believe that no pads, no gloves_full contact, requires a blend of technique, power, and sprit that is unmatched in non-contact, point system competition.
I totally agree after having watched the Sabaki Challenge tournament.
Do we measure up in power and spirit? So lets enter a Sabaki challenge, or devise a Uechi challenge along the same format. Lots of luck.
------------------
Van Canna
[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited March 30, 2001).]
This is very true.It's a false science to believe that somehow some form of combat can be necessarily considered better than some other form by using these outrageous, over hyped, televised death match events.
What I like about Master Ninomya of the Sabaki method is that he comes clean on the issue.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> My feeling is that you cannot recreate an “actual” fighting tournament that tries to recreate a life or death encounter on the street. In a real struggle you cannot anticipate the surroundings, weapons or number of opponents. You never know if such fight will take place in a hallway, alley, or open field. When a fighter’s life is threatened he may resort to using a broken piece of glass, gouging an opponent’s eye, or even biting in order to survive. That’s why tournaments that put opponents on a cage, or ring, or between lines and promise a fight to the finish cannot deliver real life or death fighting. As long as there is concern for human life, there will be rules.
The tradition of Budo developed not for the purpose of creating the most efficient predatory animal possible, but to develop the greatest human character. Those with strong character always impose rules on themselves. Those rules are designed to bring out the best qualities of both spirit and discipline. The Sabaki challenge has developed its rules and fighting format to reinforce the very best qualities of karate_ spirit, power, and technique.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That’s really where it’s at, if you give it some thought. Wish some of you had had the privilege of fighting against the likes of Taro Tanaka and Moto Yamakura, collegiate champions under master Tada, of Japan, a Samurai descendant. Their fighting was the same as the Sabaki method and they embodied the above principles through fierce action the likes of which I have not seen anywhere else.
Moto and Taro and master Ninomya believe that no pads, no gloves_full contact, requires a blend of technique, power, and sprit that is unmatched in non-contact, point system competition.
I totally agree after having watched the Sabaki Challenge tournament.
Do we measure up in power and spirit? So lets enter a Sabaki challenge, or devise a Uechi challenge along the same format. Lots of luck.
------------------
Van Canna
[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited March 30, 2001).]
Teacher says, “I can kill a man from the next zip code”
Hi Roy,
I expected you would respond to this, it was actually a set up.
I think you know me enough by now to understand that there is a method to my madness of riling people up so they are booted awake from their torpor.
You know I have written before about the benefits and value and challenge of the WKF method.
My comments were another attempt, tongue in cheek, to stir up a controversy to polarize
the issues.
Having said that, I still believe that Uechi should and would benefit from both the WKF and the Sabaki methods.
Thanks for getting into the fray, you know I value your insights.
**
One question: If it could be arranged liability wise, do you think it would be a good idea to have an elite Uechi team fight under Sabaki or full contact rules?
------------------
Van Canna
[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited March 30, 2001).]
I expected you would respond to this, it was actually a set up.
I think you know me enough by now to understand that there is a method to my madness of riling people up so they are booted awake from their torpor.
You know I have written before about the benefits and value and challenge of the WKF method.
My comments were another attempt, tongue in cheek, to stir up a controversy to polarize
the issues.
Having said that, I still believe that Uechi should and would benefit from both the WKF and the Sabaki methods.
Thanks for getting into the fray, you know I value your insights.
**
One question: If it could be arranged liability wise, do you think it would be a good idea to have an elite Uechi team fight under Sabaki or full contact rules?
------------------
Van Canna
[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited March 30, 2001).]
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Teacher says, “I can kill a man from the next zip code”
Van
I've been digesting your more recent posts over the past few days. I have a lot of random thoughts on the subject. I welcome reaction from you, Roy, and anyone else.
First of all, my feeling is that the motivation to participate in such events has to come from the individual. Let's think about two "accepted" full contact activities in our society: football and Western boxing.
In football, participants are allowed to "hit" each other in very well defined ways. There are strict rules on who can hit whom, when, and exactly how. All participants wear significant protection (helmets, shoulder pads, hip pads, etc.). Mostly it's a single shot, and then the play is over. That's not much compared to what you are talking about with UFC and Sabaki. A few days ago I was talking to Nestor about setting up a regional, and I got to asking him about why he can't sit in seiza any more. Turns out he played football for UMass. One bad hit and - boom - his career was over. Total knee construction, etc, etc. Yes, he can do great kata and prearranged kumite. But he and countless thousand of others (myself included) are now living with the consequences of these knee injuries. Mind you, this is relatively tame.
Western boxing is a little more to the point. Here you are trying to hit someone to hurt them or knock them out. But there are rules, there is gear (padded gloves), even head protection in the amateur sport. You know...Muhammad Ali used to live near Charlottesville, and I had a chance to see him on a few occasions. Trauma-induced Parkinson's syndrome is a tragic problem. He had a chance to earn a lot of money. What he has left after his divorces will help take care of him. What about all the other boxers - the vast majority of journeymen that don't make it? Well...I guess I'm somewhat familiar with how that works. I was briefly a member of The Charlottesville Boxing Club. You know what? I was the only person there who was college educated and had much in the way of a future. It was very telling. For most of the people there, they had nothing to lose. I guess in a way it was good but...in a way it was also very sad. Most of the people there didn't fully comprehend what might happen. And if it did, who would care? After all (not counting me...) it was just a bunch of black kids from the slums. They could still flip burgers at Macdonald’s... Mind you, this is a sport sanctioned by the IOC where great pains were taken to protect the participants. There are many rules designed to keep it more like a sport and less like a bloodbath.
In our society, we allow activities like football and Western boxing because they are part of tradition. Any new activity on the block is scrutinized much more heavily. The United States citizens seem to place a high premium on the value of human life. Our media and our litigation systems drive this, and they aren't kind to activities that aren't accepted. They aren't even all that kind to boxing...
I work for a health insurance company. I understand how expensive medical care is, and I understand the long-term expenses involved with seemingly insignificant injuries. Who's going to pay for the medical costs of the participants? Right now we have double-digit inflation in medical expenses. More and more employers are skipping the whole health insurance benefit, leaving an ever-increasing number totally uninsured. Individual health insurance policies are astronomically expensive now, because the individual doesn't have the bargaining power of a large employer. Furthermore, health insurance companies might take a dim view of covering someone who wants to engage in activities where destroying someone's body is the whole raison d’être. To give an example, we will not cover the medical complications that may result from a woman having breast augmentation (we do, however, pay for all expenses related to breast cancer, including implants). If someone wants a bigger chest or liposuction or other cosmetic procedure, they are on there own - period. In our view, it isn't medically necessary. We have problem enough as it is affording all the costs of treatments that combat sickness and death. So...you want to go get the *&%$ beat out of you and have us pay for the lifetime consequences that could easily result in the hundreds of thousands of dollars per case? LOL!! Better check with Lloyds of London.
So you see, the only people who should engage in activities like this are:
1) Folks who want to do it (and I know there are those folks).
2) Folks who get paid handsomely to do it so they can afford the medical expenses that WILL be incurred. At least in the military you get paid to hurt and you get free medical expenses (for a lifetime) if you get hurt. In professional sports, you can get paid handsomely if you are one of the very few (tenths of a percent of amateurs) that makes it big.
3) Folks who don't have anything to lose. They don't need to use their brain for a living. They don't care if they are crippled for the rest of their lives. They aren't going to try to sue whomever they can to support them if one fight makes them unemployable for the rest of their lives.
Look...if I had a student who wanted to do this, understood all the consequences, and STILL wanted to be involved, I would do everything I could to prepare him/her. Yes, it might even be fun. Yes, I would be very proud if that student did well, and would be involved the best I could if they got hurt. However, I think we are talking about something very different when you say <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
- Bill
I've been digesting your more recent posts over the past few days. I have a lot of random thoughts on the subject. I welcome reaction from you, Roy, and anyone else.
First of all, my feeling is that the motivation to participate in such events has to come from the individual. Let's think about two "accepted" full contact activities in our society: football and Western boxing.
In football, participants are allowed to "hit" each other in very well defined ways. There are strict rules on who can hit whom, when, and exactly how. All participants wear significant protection (helmets, shoulder pads, hip pads, etc.). Mostly it's a single shot, and then the play is over. That's not much compared to what you are talking about with UFC and Sabaki. A few days ago I was talking to Nestor about setting up a regional, and I got to asking him about why he can't sit in seiza any more. Turns out he played football for UMass. One bad hit and - boom - his career was over. Total knee construction, etc, etc. Yes, he can do great kata and prearranged kumite. But he and countless thousand of others (myself included) are now living with the consequences of these knee injuries. Mind you, this is relatively tame.
Western boxing is a little more to the point. Here you are trying to hit someone to hurt them or knock them out. But there are rules, there is gear (padded gloves), even head protection in the amateur sport. You know...Muhammad Ali used to live near Charlottesville, and I had a chance to see him on a few occasions. Trauma-induced Parkinson's syndrome is a tragic problem. He had a chance to earn a lot of money. What he has left after his divorces will help take care of him. What about all the other boxers - the vast majority of journeymen that don't make it? Well...I guess I'm somewhat familiar with how that works. I was briefly a member of The Charlottesville Boxing Club. You know what? I was the only person there who was college educated and had much in the way of a future. It was very telling. For most of the people there, they had nothing to lose. I guess in a way it was good but...in a way it was also very sad. Most of the people there didn't fully comprehend what might happen. And if it did, who would care? After all (not counting me...) it was just a bunch of black kids from the slums. They could still flip burgers at Macdonald’s... Mind you, this is a sport sanctioned by the IOC where great pains were taken to protect the participants. There are many rules designed to keep it more like a sport and less like a bloodbath.
In our society, we allow activities like football and Western boxing because they are part of tradition. Any new activity on the block is scrutinized much more heavily. The United States citizens seem to place a high premium on the value of human life. Our media and our litigation systems drive this, and they aren't kind to activities that aren't accepted. They aren't even all that kind to boxing...
I work for a health insurance company. I understand how expensive medical care is, and I understand the long-term expenses involved with seemingly insignificant injuries. Who's going to pay for the medical costs of the participants? Right now we have double-digit inflation in medical expenses. More and more employers are skipping the whole health insurance benefit, leaving an ever-increasing number totally uninsured. Individual health insurance policies are astronomically expensive now, because the individual doesn't have the bargaining power of a large employer. Furthermore, health insurance companies might take a dim view of covering someone who wants to engage in activities where destroying someone's body is the whole raison d’être. To give an example, we will not cover the medical complications that may result from a woman having breast augmentation (we do, however, pay for all expenses related to breast cancer, including implants). If someone wants a bigger chest or liposuction or other cosmetic procedure, they are on there own - period. In our view, it isn't medically necessary. We have problem enough as it is affording all the costs of treatments that combat sickness and death. So...you want to go get the *&%$ beat out of you and have us pay for the lifetime consequences that could easily result in the hundreds of thousands of dollars per case? LOL!! Better check with Lloyds of London.
So you see, the only people who should engage in activities like this are:
1) Folks who want to do it (and I know there are those folks).
2) Folks who get paid handsomely to do it so they can afford the medical expenses that WILL be incurred. At least in the military you get paid to hurt and you get free medical expenses (for a lifetime) if you get hurt. In professional sports, you can get paid handsomely if you are one of the very few (tenths of a percent of amateurs) that makes it big.
3) Folks who don't have anything to lose. They don't need to use their brain for a living. They don't care if they are crippled for the rest of their lives. They aren't going to try to sue whomever they can to support them if one fight makes them unemployable for the rest of their lives.
Look...if I had a student who wanted to do this, understood all the consequences, and STILL wanted to be involved, I would do everything I could to prepare him/her. Yes, it might even be fun. Yes, I would be very proud if that student did well, and would be involved the best I could if they got hurt. However, I think we are talking about something very different when you say <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
, or <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quotedevise a Uechi challenge along the same format
My response is Neat but...needs a lot more careful thought. In the end, only money will make something like that work. The US government has plenty to throw at the military. Sanctioned sports have professional outlets. So...who's going to pony up to handle all these medical costs? The liability issues? And are we capable as an organization of managing all the human issues?to have an elite Uechi team fight under Sabaki or full contact rules
- Bill
