bare knuckle sparring

[PMeyer]

I'm just curious how y'all view it.

good/bad/indifferent?

The school that I'm at now, believes in bare knuckle sparring from time to time and I have to say it is totally different than sparring with gloves.

I'm curious do y'all think that gloves tend to give people a false sense of security? I think that they do.

[Allen M.]

I'm a proponent of bare-knuckle sparring. Gloves get in the way, and I never accidentally hit anyone until I started wearing gloves because it messed up my distancing. I also got hurt once wearing gloves because they prohibited making a tight fist, and when one makes a fist, sometimes the way one gets kicked in the glove forces the hand open by the strings or webbing pulling on them, thereby jamming the fingers into the shin. One must really go at it to appreciate the above.

Wearing gloves is definitely more dangerous to the wearer, but that's just my opinion.

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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera

[Guest]

I agree with Allen. Lots of hand injuries wearing gloves.Also folks seem to have less control with gloves on.

Laird

[david]

Bare knuckle was the norm before Jhoon Rhee came up will the "marshmellows" that have evolved how sparring/competition has gone in many places.

I think bare knuckle sparring should still be done because it allows for techniques like grabbing that gets downplayed with marshmellows on. Forget trying a wing chun style punch. Bare knuckles also require more precision in defensive techniques because the unsheathed fist is harder to pick up and deflect.

Nevertheless, I won't bash sparring with marshmellows. Would the small training group, I like to have head contact with drills and sparring we do. Marshmellows don't diminish the impact per se, but they certainly minimize some of the cutting/splitting of facial features that can happen with even light but fast contact with bare knuckles. And speaking of blood... it's not bad to have those plastic marshmellows offering a bit of a barrier. Blood shows up nicely on white plastic btw.

david

[Shaolin]

I think there are alternatives to the one or the other approach. There are lots of different kinds of gloves out there from JKD gloves to Boxing to grappling gloves etc. One can work with different kinds of gloves and other training gear and work on different things.

I am starting to experiment with various kinds of protective gear and hope in the future to pick up some of that Blauer Gear if either I can get a high paying job again or the prices come down, for use in combat drills, etc.

Chi Sao is always done bare fist/handed and it is tough to do it any other way for space and sensitivity reasons. We use solid to hard contact to the body and light to moderate contact to the head with open hand techniques (depending on level and what the students are working on). It is generally thought that proper distancing, body alignment, up-rooting the opponent and staying in one's horse is more important than using full power when striking the opponent in Chi-Sao, but I have seen wise guy juniors launched into orbit as well.

But for 'realistic' training to deal with attacks I think it is really important that the student defending feels unfettered and unafraid to hit his attacking partner. I like to simulate street type attacks and the attacker's centerline is often open and must be attacked (here comes a roundhouse punch). If the student is afraid that he will hurt his partner, his timing and distancing can get very distorted. So I believe in using equipment to deal with this to both free the defender and protect the partner.

Jim


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Moy Yat Ving Tsun
Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu

[This message has been edited by Shaolin (edited March 03, 2002).]

[turbotort2000]

PMeyer,

A few observations I have made about punching.

One--knuckles are not design for the kind of impact that many of the martial arts students are capable of producing. I have seen lots of hand injures with and with out gloves in my days but have never seen any palm strike injuries or hammerfist injurries.

Two-schools that train bare-knuckle do not use face punching which unfortunately, for them, is an optimal target. Although, I do think it is safer to strike with an open hand, I think the face as a target yields profitable results.

Three-Schools that use gloves and train full contact, (ie punch as hard as you can), are wearing the gloves to protect the persons face and the punchers hand.

[Allen M.]

Hi David. I remember the marshmellows. The first time I sparred was against a brown-belt with those things on.

Gloves are necessary for insurance purposes.

There are up and down sides for gloves. I have had hand injuries both with and without, but I still prefer no gloves.

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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera

[aiki]

Back in the "old" days, when I learned and taught Kenpo Karate for my belts, we always spared with no protection. This is the best way. It is more like reality. But you need a good instructor to referee, so no one gets killed. One should go to a dojo to learn how to protects oneself, not to be battered. So control should be taught. Even with hard tiled floors, we never got more than a brused nose or a sprain, and we went at it.

[candan]

Anyone remember when hockey goal tenders didn`t wear mask or helmits..what guts and no wonder they had nicknames like "Gump"! Head injuries are no less with gloves but whether hand injuries have decreased I am uncertain. Less chance of eye injuries and the colors are quite nice..I prefer not to use them but probably should as I have to use them in tournaments.

[Maygan]

This is only my oppinion but I have never urt myself wearing gloves before and I have just started training without them and I broke my knuckle after about my 7th or 8th fight. If I had been wearing gloves I would have never broken my knuckle

[NEB]

There are some good arguments on both sides here. At one time I asked my teacher about pads and protection. He made it quite clear that we do not use any padding because if you do, you are not training yourself to fight in a true empty handed fashion. He's right. There are just too many techniques that are impossible to execute with gloves on ... even jujutsu gloves.

And yes, I realize that you're probably never going to be able to defend yourself for real using some of the more exotic techniques. But, whilst in the dojo, why not give yourself the opportunity to try something from time to time. He, (my teacher) has presided over litereally hundreds if in-dojo free sparrings with hard punches thrown (and distanced so as not to hurt) with very few injuries.

So, for what its worth, that's my humble opinion.

[T Rose]

truth of the matter is that you need both. Gloveless is excellent for all around 'feel', grabbing, takedowns, working from standing up to the ground etc..

however gloveless you have to pull punches to some extent. gloveless you don't get a chance to 'follow up' after a good hit i.e see your partners body reactions.


with (say 10 oz) gloves, a good boxing helmet and body protector you can hit to some degree, follow through with multiple hits (combos etc) and learn how to hit for real. This is something that you can practice on a bag but can only learn live. With gloves you also can experience what a hit feels like and learn to deal with it.


Now to the fact: not everyone will be willing to train this way! It is only for a few...

later

[gmattson]

We should also stress that none of the lightweight body armor is made for "full contact". Sparring equipment allows some contact, to give a more realistic feeling of fighting, but should not be thought of as a way to hit full power.

There is a reason the huge suits used in Model Mugging and other full contact senerio drills make the wearer look like the Pillsbury Dough Boy. . . It takes that much padding to protect the person.



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GEM

[Bill Glasheen]

There are indeed many issues here.

1) Legal

2) Realism

3) Sport

4) Personal health

5) Ability to perform various techniques (or not), whether they be striking, grabbing, or grapling.

6) Hitting full contact, light contact, or no contact.

7) Habits (good and bad) learned in various modes.

Others have dealt with these issues adequately. My personal opinion is that no one way we train will give you everything you need.

For those concerned about liability, well this is a very important reason why we do prearranged work. Never forget that!

The biggest problem with the gloves that isn't explicitly stated here is that real street fighting involves a need to protect the hands from various scenarois such as accidentally punching the top of the head (it happens). With the gloves on, we always want to punch, punch, punch. Bad instinct on the street when going to the head! Perhaps this is where the bag training - where we hit full contact - can correct that.

Hand injuries, whether in the dojo or in a survival situation, are very serious issues. The former can result in a permanent disability; the latter can mean losing your life. Thus training issues become very important, and from the analysis above one can see it isn't a simple issue.

- Bill

[LeeDarrow]

I recently attended a Shidokan open tournament as a spectator. In the fights there, they use gloves in one match and no gloves in the second round against the same opponent.

I was surprised to see a champion from Europe beat the living daylights out of his opponent in the gloved match with an extremely aggressive style.

But his whole approach changed when the gloves came off. His style became extremely defensive, almost timid. It was obvious that he was seriously worried about getting hit, gloveless.

I asked him about it (after he resoundingly lost (a full knock-out) and he said that, overseas, they didn't train as much without the gloves and that getting hit with a fist simply hurts more.

Given the effects his opponent had on his face, I could only agree. There IS something to be said for the "sting factor" of fighting barehanded.

It can be very intimidating.

Respectfully,

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.