When you work with the same individual class after class, month after month, year after year, sparring, do you think this can hinder your training? Most will say yes believing that you tend to work, “with,” instead of, “against,” which is not realistic. And that they will also be able to learn your, “every move,” and therefore will turn the exercise into an anticipatory sparring match and other etc. I do believe that from time to time that we need fresh, “meat,” to work with, however, I find the opposite to be true. I think that when someone has learned my technique to the point of successfully inhibiting most of what I throw at them and vise versa, then it is time to relearn new approaches, keeping my, and their skills up to par. Where as, changing partners too much never really allows one this process to occur. The person, who knows me, motivates my sparring to a higher level. The person who stops in for classes once in a while will offer some variety, but doesn’t seem to offer the same level of enlightenment. An example I can think of is the old NBA games between Larry Bird and Magic Johnson. They played each other for years and still showed us some of the best basketball this last century had to offer. Their level of competition was incredible. So what our your thoughts about having the same training partner to work with,.………?
I would appreciate any input.
Pros and Cons For\Against Same Sparring Partener
Moderator: Available
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Allen M.
Pros and Cons For\Against Same Sparring Partener
You've pretty much ambivelently answered your own question, Uechij, before you asked it!
It turns out to be a "Can't see the forest from the trees" enigma. While one may get better and better at sparring against the same person, that skill becomes an increasingly narrower skill.
Everyone spars differently, or at least there are major groups of sparer types, countable on one or two hands. Unless one wants to practice monogonistic sparring, one often needs to hunt for what you call "fresh meat."
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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
[edited for spelling]
[This message has been edited by Allen M. (edited March 30, 2002).]
It turns out to be a "Can't see the forest from the trees" enigma. While one may get better and better at sparring against the same person, that skill becomes an increasingly narrower skill.
Everyone spars differently, or at least there are major groups of sparer types, countable on one or two hands. Unless one wants to practice monogonistic sparring, one often needs to hunt for what you call "fresh meat."
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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
[edited for spelling]
[This message has been edited by Allen M. (edited March 30, 2002).]
Pros and Cons For\Against Same Sparring Partener
Allen,
Yes, I have stated my beliefs about sparring with the same opponent but it is yours and others perceptions I'm seeking. Do you agree with them? Who presents more of a challange for you, the intermittent unpredictable opponent or the partner who knows your every move? Both pose their challanges, who are you more comfortable with?
"While one may get better and better at sparring against the same person, that skill becomes an increasingly narrower skill."
Can you elaborate a little more on this?
"Everyone spars differently, or at least there are major groups of sparer types, countable on one or two hands."
Great! What are they? This is exactly what I was trying to start a discussion on.
[This message has been edited by Uechij (edited March 30, 2002).]
Yes, I have stated my beliefs about sparring with the same opponent but it is yours and others perceptions I'm seeking. Do you agree with them? Who presents more of a challange for you, the intermittent unpredictable opponent or the partner who knows your every move? Both pose their challanges, who are you more comfortable with?
"While one may get better and better at sparring against the same person, that skill becomes an increasingly narrower skill."
Can you elaborate a little more on this?
"Everyone spars differently, or at least there are major groups of sparer types, countable on one or two hands."
Great! What are they? This is exactly what I was trying to start a discussion on.
[This message has been edited by Uechij (edited March 30, 2002).]
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GSantaniello
- Posts: 190
- Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: Randolph, Ma. U.S.A.
Pros and Cons For\Against Same Sparring Partener
Everyone's abilities are different. The more limited you are, the less you develop.
Think not that by sparring with the same partner continuosly that you will develop better sparring skills. One of you will be superior (in most cases) and can play somewhat with the other.
Some are more "agressive" in there sparring bringing with them more offensive fighting. While others may be more "defensive" waiting to counter your initiating the attack.
Different people have various skills and advantages. Some are taller ad use their "reach" to their advantage. While others who are shorter, must overcome that "challenge" and learn to get inside to fight.
Some use "power' and can back you up regularly with force and drive. While others are talented in "moving" about avoiding geting hit and good counter measures.
The more "variety" you can seek out and exchange with, the better you will become in the long run. Think not that one who is well developed in sparing with "one" partner is in anyway ready to deal with a "variety" of people.
Seek out those who are better skilled than yourself and work with them. They will help bring "your" level up a notch !
A partner is good also. But not all that is required.
Respectfully,
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Gary S.
Think not that by sparring with the same partner continuosly that you will develop better sparring skills. One of you will be superior (in most cases) and can play somewhat with the other.
Some are more "agressive" in there sparring bringing with them more offensive fighting. While others may be more "defensive" waiting to counter your initiating the attack.
Different people have various skills and advantages. Some are taller ad use their "reach" to their advantage. While others who are shorter, must overcome that "challenge" and learn to get inside to fight.
Some use "power' and can back you up regularly with force and drive. While others are talented in "moving" about avoiding geting hit and good counter measures.
The more "variety" you can seek out and exchange with, the better you will become in the long run. Think not that one who is well developed in sparing with "one" partner is in anyway ready to deal with a "variety" of people.
Seek out those who are better skilled than yourself and work with them. They will help bring "your" level up a notch !
A partner is good also. But not all that is required.
Respectfully,
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Gary S.
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gmattson
- Site Admin
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- Location: Lake Mary, Florida
- Contact:
Pros and Cons For\Against Same Sparring Partener
We've been discussing the UFC on another thread, so I'll use that contest to make a point:
How do you think the UFC would have evolved if only Jiujitsu practitioners participated?
If only boxers? Wrestlers?
What if there were only two participants and they fought once a week?
In each of these senerios, do you think the fighters would have improved to the degree that they have today?
Fighters, regardless of their basic training methods, will learn from their opponents. They will compensate, adapt and invent new strategies and techniques based on the people they fight. The more varied the fighters, the faster the evolutionary process.
One of the dangers of inbreeding in dojo, is that fighters tend to become comfortable with one another's techniques. Strategy and innovation takes a back seat to what becomes comfortable and predictable matches.
Seek out new opponents, attend tournaments that have strong competitors. Continue to test yourself and your training methods.
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GEM
How do you think the UFC would have evolved if only Jiujitsu practitioners participated?
If only boxers? Wrestlers?
What if there were only two participants and they fought once a week?
In each of these senerios, do you think the fighters would have improved to the degree that they have today?
Fighters, regardless of their basic training methods, will learn from their opponents. They will compensate, adapt and invent new strategies and techniques based on the people they fight. The more varied the fighters, the faster the evolutionary process.
One of the dangers of inbreeding in dojo, is that fighters tend to become comfortable with one another's techniques. Strategy and innovation takes a back seat to what becomes comfortable and predictable matches.
Seek out new opponents, attend tournaments that have strong competitors. Continue to test yourself and your training methods.
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GEM
Pros and Cons For\Against Same Sparring Partener
I've always held that a regular partner is there to for testing out new techniques and mastering some old ones. They'll be honest about what works and doesn't and gen you'll be more confident to test new ideas and less worried about what they'll throw at you.
New partners are, otoh, there to test you and force you to apply principles and techniques learnt. You'll be less confident and so will they. You'll also find it harder to guage how well a tech is working on them. However you won't tend to experiment or try the unknowns.
In effect the reg partner is the textbook for the course but the new one is the test at the end of each module. If that makes sense (its 3 in the morning here after a long day).
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Daniel Thomas
New partners are, otoh, there to test you and force you to apply principles and techniques learnt. You'll be less confident and so will they. You'll also find it harder to guage how well a tech is working on them. However you won't tend to experiment or try the unknowns.
In effect the reg partner is the textbook for the course but the new one is the test at the end of each module. If that makes sense (its 3 in the morning here after a long day).
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Daniel Thomas
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Allen M.
Pros and Cons For\Against Same Sparring Partener
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Can you elaborate a little more on this?
"Everyone spars differently, or at least there are major groups of sparer types, countable on one or two hands."
Great! What are they? This is exactly what I was trying to start a discussion on.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Uechij,
I lost tack of this post, sorry.
a) The more you work with one and only one person or thing, the better you get at it, up to a point. Sparring with the same person one can predict moves, even several moves ahead of time because the habits of that particular person become more evident and obvious the more you work out with him.
2)Types of fighters. Well, there are the aggressors, the defenders, the kickers, the punchers, the strong, the weak, the sneaky, the timid, the brave, the lefties, the righties, the switch-hitters, the low fighters, the high fighters, the fast, the slow...
These are tied tightly with personality traits of individuals, and one can learn about different personalities just by sparring with them. One can say pigeonholing or stereotyping, but in the end one learns how to spar against minds and personalities rather than against hands and feet while the hands and feet are flying.
Is this the type of thing you were looking for?
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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
Can you elaborate a little more on this?
"Everyone spars differently, or at least there are major groups of sparer types, countable on one or two hands."
Great! What are they? This is exactly what I was trying to start a discussion on.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Uechij,
I lost tack of this post, sorry.
a) The more you work with one and only one person or thing, the better you get at it, up to a point. Sparring with the same person one can predict moves, even several moves ahead of time because the habits of that particular person become more evident and obvious the more you work out with him.
2)Types of fighters. Well, there are the aggressors, the defenders, the kickers, the punchers, the strong, the weak, the sneaky, the timid, the brave, the lefties, the righties, the switch-hitters, the low fighters, the high fighters, the fast, the slow...
These are tied tightly with personality traits of individuals, and one can learn about different personalities just by sparring with them. One can say pigeonholing or stereotyping, but in the end one learns how to spar against minds and personalities rather than against hands and feet while the hands and feet are flying.
Is this the type of thing you were looking for?
------------------
Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Pros and Cons For\Against Same Sparring Partener
I think there are advantages and disadvantages to working with the familiar and the unknown. To a certain extent, many of the issues have been covered.
The mind tends to be able to handle about a half dozen items at the same time - under the best of conditions. The advantage of having a familiar partner to work with is that many of the characteristics become "background noise," and so one is able to focus on experimenting with new things. But we are basically lazy beings, and it often doesn't take long before we try just hard enough to get by. I know this is often true with many I work with. Now take a new partner, and one taxes those half dozen items pretty quickly, because many things may be new. This becomes even more so if we elect to venture far out of our comfort zone and work with an unfamiliar format or in an unfamiliar dojo.
To a large extent, it's very healthy to push yourself out of your comfort zone often. Part of remaining young is maintaining the ability to learn new things. The brain - even the physical aspects of such - is to a large extent like a muscle and must be taxed and pushed to keep "in shape." Furthermore, by doing so one can often take the same basic moves and find new ways to apply them. The beauty of a simple style or a small set of chosen methods in a larger style is that one can take a single movement and learn to apply in in entirely different scenarios (thrusting vs. striking vs. blocking vs. throwing vs. holding/restraining). Furthermore, the exact same manifestation of a simple move works differently on different partners. Multiple variations on the same theme develops a deeper understanding of that theme.
Really good fighters tend to pick just a few favorite people to work with because there are few that challenge them. And to a large extent others tend to do well with those that aren't TOO different in ability. But the changes are generally good - particularly if one has a number of individuals to choose from at a certain level of ability (no matter what the individual habits).
I see I also ramble on this subject.
- Bill
The mind tends to be able to handle about a half dozen items at the same time - under the best of conditions. The advantage of having a familiar partner to work with is that many of the characteristics become "background noise," and so one is able to focus on experimenting with new things. But we are basically lazy beings, and it often doesn't take long before we try just hard enough to get by. I know this is often true with many I work with. Now take a new partner, and one taxes those half dozen items pretty quickly, because many things may be new. This becomes even more so if we elect to venture far out of our comfort zone and work with an unfamiliar format or in an unfamiliar dojo.
To a large extent, it's very healthy to push yourself out of your comfort zone often. Part of remaining young is maintaining the ability to learn new things. The brain - even the physical aspects of such - is to a large extent like a muscle and must be taxed and pushed to keep "in shape." Furthermore, by doing so one can often take the same basic moves and find new ways to apply them. The beauty of a simple style or a small set of chosen methods in a larger style is that one can take a single movement and learn to apply in in entirely different scenarios (thrusting vs. striking vs. blocking vs. throwing vs. holding/restraining). Furthermore, the exact same manifestation of a simple move works differently on different partners. Multiple variations on the same theme develops a deeper understanding of that theme.
Really good fighters tend to pick just a few favorite people to work with because there are few that challenge them. And to a large extent others tend to do well with those that aren't TOO different in ability. But the changes are generally good - particularly if one has a number of individuals to choose from at a certain level of ability (no matter what the individual habits).
I see I also ramble on this subject.
- Bill
Pros and Cons For\Against Same Sparring Partener
Mr. Moulten,
“Is this the type of thing you were looking for?”
Yes!
“These are tied tightly with personality traits of individuals, and one can learn about different personalities just by sparring with them. One can say pigeonholing or stereotyping, but in the end one learns how to spar against minds and personalities rather than against hands and feet while the hands and feet are flying.”
Very cool concept! I never really thought about it like that. If you don’t mind, I would like to know more about this personality\fighter match up, could you give me an example?
“The more you work with one and only one person or thing, the better you get at it, up to a point. Sparring with the same person one can predict moves, even several moves ahead of time because the habits of that particular person become more evident and obvious the more you work out with him.”
True, but doesn’t it then become more of a challenge to fight, ultimately forcing you to improve upon your skills? Mr. Glasheen says:
“The advantage of having a familiar partner to work with is that many of the characteristics become "background noise," and so one is able to focus on experimenting with new things.”
“Multiple variations on the same theme develops a deeper understanding of that theme.”
This makes good sense to me. With a new partner you don’t get the same opportunity, so the focus tends to shift more on “holding your own,” or winning. This is why I think you tend to learn more, in most ways, with the known partner. However, I do believe that it is good to work out of the comfort zone, as this makes you feel “alive,” so to speak(especially when it comes to blocking).
[This message has been edited by Uechij (edited April 03, 2002).]
“Is this the type of thing you were looking for?”
Yes!
“These are tied tightly with personality traits of individuals, and one can learn about different personalities just by sparring with them. One can say pigeonholing or stereotyping, but in the end one learns how to spar against minds and personalities rather than against hands and feet while the hands and feet are flying.”
Very cool concept! I never really thought about it like that. If you don’t mind, I would like to know more about this personality\fighter match up, could you give me an example?
“The more you work with one and only one person or thing, the better you get at it, up to a point. Sparring with the same person one can predict moves, even several moves ahead of time because the habits of that particular person become more evident and obvious the more you work out with him.”
True, but doesn’t it then become more of a challenge to fight, ultimately forcing you to improve upon your skills? Mr. Glasheen says:
“The advantage of having a familiar partner to work with is that many of the characteristics become "background noise," and so one is able to focus on experimenting with new things.”
“Multiple variations on the same theme develops a deeper understanding of that theme.”
This makes good sense to me. With a new partner you don’t get the same opportunity, so the focus tends to shift more on “holding your own,” or winning. This is why I think you tend to learn more, in most ways, with the known partner. However, I do believe that it is good to work out of the comfort zone, as this makes you feel “alive,” so to speak(especially when it comes to blocking).
[This message has been edited by Uechij (edited April 03, 2002).]
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Stryke
Pros and Cons For\Against Same Sparring Partener
I tend to want to spar with the very beginners or the very advanced , wether i know them or not , I find the advanced a challenge and a test , and i find the beginners scary because they dont know what they cant do yet .
if you really want to test yourself dont look past that aggresive novice , thats the guy youll run into on the street .
if you really want to test yourself dont look past that aggresive novice , thats the guy youll run into on the street .
Pros and Cons For\Against Same Sparring Partener
Ive had the same partner for 8 months, he is everything I am not. I wonder who's ways am I adapting to, his or mine.
Pros and Cons For\Against Same Sparring Partener
I don't really see sparring as a way to try out techniques unless you're talking about training for a tourney. Sparring to me is trying to deal with pressure. You practice your favorite move in some sparring type drills up to something as close to sparring as reaction drills/sticky hands type stuff or pad work to work on the technique. Then in sparring you let all those techniques go and try to deal with the totally unexpected, which you don't get from working with the same partner.
A successful session for me is to fight a white belt who is wildly flailing at me and tackling me, and for me to escape the 'unorthodox' punishment and land a few vital shots all within a matter of seconds. Any more time than that and I think people start to get really comfortable... you begin to play with the white belt and eventually he's scared to try anything on you-- unlike the Big Bad Guy.
A successful session for me is to fight a white belt who is wildly flailing at me and tackling me, and for me to escape the 'unorthodox' punishment and land a few vital shots all within a matter of seconds. Any more time than that and I think people start to get really comfortable... you begin to play with the white belt and eventually he's scared to try anything on you-- unlike the Big Bad Guy.
