VA Kyusho Class

M. Keller · Post by **M. Keller** » Thu Jul 11, 2002 3:37 am

Hello all,
I just got back from a round of pressure point application at Joe Aldridge's dojo, and all I can say is...wow. The session was centered around applying kyusho and grappling techniques to kata movements, and the result was pretty amazing.

One of the first movements involved a centerline dual palm strike to the edge of the temple (trigeminal nerve?). With a medium strike, one of the people was KO'd outright.

I showed Joe the seisan dual wrist strike to the neck, and he suggested putting a slight snap on the end of it to make it better for nailing GB-20.

In any case, it was obvious that Uechi (as well as many of the other systems represented at this class) mesh nicely with kyusho. Though it would undoubtedly take many, many years to master this stuff, my thought is that a working knowledge of pressure point strikes can only help a practitioner.

-Mike

[This message has been edited by M. Keller (edited July 10, 2002).]

Ted Dinwiddie · Post by **Ted Dinwiddie** » Thu Jul 11, 2002 3:59 am

Mike,

It was a pleasure to have you join us. I hope it is the beginning of many such visits. I have very little knowledge of the Uechi system and what I saw tonight looked like some good stuff.

I would love to get together and share kata sometime.

Sorry Bill couldn't be there. Next month conflicts with your summer camp, but there's September...

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ted

"I learn by going where I have to go." - Theodore Roethke

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Thu Jul 11, 2002 2:42 pm

Ted

I was on my way. I stopped off at the 7-11 to get some fluids, came back to the car, and...nothing.

It's electrical. I smell $$$.

Last time my car gave me problems (a flat tire) was the last time I saw you. What, are you sending some bad qi my way or something?

Next time, Ted. We'll have some fun.

Mike

Be careful with those KOs. I feel like a lone wolf out here amongst all the Dillman "Nobody gets hurt" crowd but... If any one particular KO is real (and I'm convinced not all of them are), there's plenty of evidence in the medical literature that would lead you to believe it's not a zero-risk proposition. Lots of anecdotes of deaths from incidental triggering of such responses in medical procedures. I certainly hope someone seconds me. And there's still debate in the literature about the long term effects of repeated KOs.

But telling karate people not to play with this is like telling adolescents not to listen to Sex line.

Just be careful.

- Bill

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Thu Jul 11, 2002 2:44 pm

BTW, Mike, the trigeminal nerve is right under your nose. Go to Jimmy Malone's pressure point session, and he'll show you.

Ted Dinwiddie · Post by **Ted Dinwiddie** » Thu Jul 11, 2002 4:42 pm

FWIW, I agree with Bill on the care that must be taken when playing with kyusho. Knowing revival techniques is the minimum.

Joe has excellent control and had no intention of actually taking Tom out last night. Tom has been undergoing treatment for a C-level disc so there was something else going on in that mix. Tom told me that soon after the knockout the location on his neck was "burning". It subsided later. I don't think he should have stepped up for the demo with his condition, but Tom still likes to be Joe's practice dummy. It was also a good illustration of the hazards of playing around with this stuff. Many factors contribute to effects (or non-effects) and it is very hard to take them all into account. As Joe said, better to err on the side of caution.

That is one of the difficulties, as I see it, of testing this stuff. There is an inherent danger and we really don't know what it might actually be. That is one reason Joe likes these monthly get-togethers, we can experiment a bit with others who can help prevent problems.

Bill,

As far as the car goes, HMMM, it does have much simpler systems than the human body...
Maybe you were charged up for us.

------------------
ted

"I learn by going where I have to go." - Theodore Roethke

[This message has been edited by Ted Dinwiddie (edited July 11, 2002).]

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Thu Jul 11, 2002 6:56 pm

Ted

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote

As far as the car goes, HMMM, it does have much simpler systems than the human body...

In regards to that, you are right one one account. Simply put, if the car says Nissan, Audi, or anything made in Great Britain, you are guaranteed to have electrical system problems at some point in the life of the vehicle.

- Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited July 11, 2002).]

Topos · Post by **Topos** » Thu Jul 11, 2002 8:49 pm

Bill,

Speaking of British Cars:

People familiar with the wonderfully designed XKE's know the following
1) The reason the Brits like drinking warm beer is because LUCAS made the refrigerators.
2) LUCAS: the Lord of Darkness
3) Bumper sticker on a Jaguar "But When It Runs......."
4) How do you know that your Jaguar is a LEMON?
Ans: It runs when it's raining outside.

Buy Mercedes!!!!! (personal prejudice).

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Thu Jul 11, 2002 10:59 pm

In all fairness to the carmakers mentioned above...turned out to be an Interstate battery (probably AMERICAN made). It shorted, and I couldn't even jumper-cable the car.

That brand of battery does that; it doesn't die gently.

Got off cheap, except for the tow.

- Bill

M. Kelly · Post by **M. Kelly** » Thu Jul 11, 2002 11:05 pm

Dr Glasheen,
You are not alone with your warnings about the dangers of striking the points. I mention this a number of times in my book, on my site, and even in my articles.

As for the medical literature that supports the dangerous claims about the points, I have been researching this for quite some time and I totally agree with you. I already posted on this site several references concerning vagal arrest. (which I think you originally said did not exist

)
Of note, I have put together an article that discusses case reports where serous injuries have occurred from accidental blunt trauma to areas that correspond to points. This article will be in the September issue of Black Belt if anyone is interested.

One final point, I think your anatomy might be a little off. The trigeminal nerve actually is composed of three main branches that correlate with points on the forehead, cheeks and jaw.

M. Kelly · Post by **M. Kelly** » Thu Jul 11, 2002 11:08 pm

That should say NOTICED several references on vagal arrest. Not posted. I do not want to take credit for someone elses research.

I really have to work on my typing

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Thu Jul 11, 2002 11:12 pm

I stand corrected. My specialty is systems physiology - not anatomy.

Looking forward to the September article.

My earlier reference was to the concept of vagal escape. But after having been shown the citations - recent I might add - I now understand this to be possible.

Strange... I used to revive unhealthy (stenosed or occluded coronary arteries) hearts in the lab all the time. You expect that with compromised myocardial perfusion. The electrical shutdown is fascinating. When you think about the fact that a heart transplant is a totally denervated entity, it seems difficult to imagine how the vagus could make it stop.

Truth be told, we don't really know why it happens (heart stops from vasovagal response) when it does, right? Slow down, yes. Pass out, yes. But why does it stop in these odd cases, when vagal escape is the norm?

- Bill

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Thu Jul 11, 2002 11:29 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote

The 3 divisions of the trigeminal nerve (cranial V)...the ophthalmic nerve supplies the fronto-nasal proceess; the maxillary nerve the maxillary process, and the mandibular nerve the mandibular process.

- Grant's Atlas of Anatomy

That about does the whole face...

BTW, what the heck IS that sucker under the nose?

- Bill

M. Keller · Post by **M. Keller** » Fri Jul 12, 2002 5:42 am

I certainly agree that we can't whack away on the neck and spine points, and in all fairness to Joe, the KO was accidental. Regardless, it was interesting to learn about the striking directions necessary to apply this stuff.

I also saw some interesting new tools: Joe added a thumb knuckle strike to a rotating low block to nail the inner thigh. Interesting...

Mike

[This message has been edited by M. Keller (edited July 11, 2002).]

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Jul 12, 2002 6:46 am

Interstate's short out!

Now ya tell us.I bought six last winter.

Some vehicles need 2 big ones)

Today I picked up a truck after rebuilding the trans.($3600) I also arranged to fix a truck with 4 broken leaf springs( 900.00)

Placed an add for a few new drivers

Then on the way home after 14 hours I discover that one of me boys put a dent in my pick up. And tore the tail pipe half off the truck on a log or rock. Grrrrrrrrrrrr!

Moral of the story Bill, If it's got wheels it cost money. If you want to turn thoses wheels , well it just costs you a wee bit more.

Lets not be too hard on thoses British cars guys, I long for those simpler days. Like a single barrel piston carb. Running rough, need a tune up? Well don't bother mate all ye need is a dab of machine oil in the old carb and she will purrrrrrrrrr like the day ya bought her! Nothing wrong with that from were I sit!

Laird.

Btw the pokey stuff is interesting too.

Post by **gmattson** » Fri Jul 12, 2002 11:32 am

I used to be able to do a complete engine rebuild on my TR3 in my driveway! Standard equipment for a British car was a toolbox in the trunk. Not unusual to take a trip and end up doing a tuneup before heading home!

My Jaguar didn't like water... would short out driving over a puddle!

But when they worked. . . What beautiful cars!

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GEM

[This message has been edited by gmattson (edited July 12, 2002).]