<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Barefoot Zen pp.91-92:
Part of the legacy of Shaolin is the invention, or at the very least the continuation, of recording and classifying empty-hand movements in solo and two-person choreographed forms, for practice, preservatio, and communication. these forms are, in fact, text books or systems manuals. They are written in the style of Zen wordless gesture, and act as a common link between the Shaolin-based arts, as distinguished from the non-Shaolin fighting methods. As stated earlier, these forms, called quan (kuan) in Chinese and kata in Japanese, constitute the backbone of a style or system and have distinctive characteristics.
There are innumerable Kung Fu and Karate styles in existence today, each with its own selection of forms. As we saw in chapter 2, the same forms are often practiced differently, not only among different "styles", but among those who claim to practice the same style as well.
Regrettably, subtle and sophisticated techniques originally cataloging pushing-hand skills, flow drills, yielding responses to pushes, pulls, responses to unbalancing tactics, grip escapes, Chi-Na or Tui-te (grappling, seizing, restraining) joint locking, or subduing, have been reworked. Their applications have been interpreted as "blocks" or "strikes" with little else being considered or demonstrated. As a result, unfortunately, forms are often presented as a variety of mysterious ways to block a ballistic attack of an imaginary enemy (or several imaginary enemies) and strike back. Bent-wrist blocks (most dangerous to the blocker!), dubious strikes using the back of the wrist, puzzling time-consuming two-part blocks, strange blocks using the elbow, and a whole host of improbable movie-like applications and counterattacks are commonly used to explain away the content of the authentic forms. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thoughts?
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Glenn
Kata Applications
Moderator: Available
Kata Applications
Many questions arise:
Who is the author, and what are his/her qualifications?
What, and to what extent has s/he observed which lead him/her to these conclusions?
Does s/he actually understand the "real" applications of the techniques, and has s/he tried them in practise to determine that they are simply movie-like and mysterious?
Does the author understand the origins and reasons for Kata, and why it is practiced?
Lots of people watch Kata and think "man, no way would an attack happen like that: why are they acting out such a scenario?" thereby totally missing the point.
It's hard to say where the opinions came from, so it's hard to respond with any credibility.
Need credentials and background to evaluate.
NM
Who is the author, and what are his/her qualifications?
What, and to what extent has s/he observed which lead him/her to these conclusions?
Does s/he actually understand the "real" applications of the techniques, and has s/he tried them in practise to determine that they are simply movie-like and mysterious?
Does the author understand the origins and reasons for Kata, and why it is practiced?
Lots of people watch Kata and think "man, no way would an attack happen like that: why are they acting out such a scenario?" thereby totally missing the point.
It's hard to say where the opinions came from, so it's hard to respond with any credibility.
Need credentials and background to evaluate.
NM
Kata Applications
Do you need to know credentials? You can believe the guy (or gal) whether novice or expert... most of the famous scientific paradigm shifts in were propelled by relatively inexperienced people, not by the seasoned professors. Maybe documentation would make it a bit more intriguing.
Kata Applications
Ah! I hit the reply button and in that short second your reply, Ian, popped up and took the words out of my mouth.
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Kata Applications
Many martial artists have been saying this - particularly the kyusho people.
If you practice karate and only think of it as blocking and striking (futher advancing the polarized myth of the pure striker vs. pure grappler), you often miss out on as much as half of the practical applications of movement in a form. Even if it isn't what the original choreographer meant, I have tagged as many as 10 unique applications to single movements in my own forms. The more I practice, the less "specific" I am in my kata movements. This was a point shared by Nakahodo in Atlanta in August 2001. Doing so is a practical exercise in parsimony, thereby increasing the likelihood that something you want to happen in a fight WILL happen.
It's OK to question, 2Green. But sometimes dumb ideas are good ones.
- Bill
If you practice karate and only think of it as blocking and striking (futher advancing the polarized myth of the pure striker vs. pure grappler), you often miss out on as much as half of the practical applications of movement in a form. Even if it isn't what the original choreographer meant, I have tagged as many as 10 unique applications to single movements in my own forms. The more I practice, the less "specific" I am in my kata movements. This was a point shared by Nakahodo in Atlanta in August 2001. Doing so is a practical exercise in parsimony, thereby increasing the likelihood that something you want to happen in a fight WILL happen.
It's OK to question, 2Green. But sometimes dumb ideas are good ones.
- Bill
Kata Applications
Sorry if the way I posted these was confusing. See the Arm Rubbing thread for some info about the author. Here is his bio in the book:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Nathan J. Johnson spent seven years learning about Buddhism from the monks and nuns of a contemporary monastery. He holds a fifth-degree black belt in Karate, a fourth-degree black sash in Chinese Kung Fu, and teaches the Chinese empty-hand arts and simple meditation techniques. He holds seminars and gives lectures throughout both Great Britain and the United States. His previous book, Zen Shaolin Karate (Tuttle, 1994), has had several printings. He lives in Hampshire, England, where he was born. Readers may contact him through his web ste, http://www.zenshorindo.com. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The book is very well illustrated, and at least gives the impression that he has thought out and worked through his ideas.
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Glenn
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Nathan J. Johnson spent seven years learning about Buddhism from the monks and nuns of a contemporary monastery. He holds a fifth-degree black belt in Karate, a fourth-degree black sash in Chinese Kung Fu, and teaches the Chinese empty-hand arts and simple meditation techniques. He holds seminars and gives lectures throughout both Great Britain and the United States. His previous book, Zen Shaolin Karate (Tuttle, 1994), has had several printings. He lives in Hampshire, England, where he was born. Readers may contact him through his web ste, http://www.zenshorindo.com. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The book is very well illustrated, and at least gives the impression that he has thought out and worked through his ideas.
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Glenn
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jorvik
Kata Applications
glenn
look at the other thread for the wing chun group that he started out with, I'll reprint their address here
http://home.clara.net/buddhistwingchun/
I have a video by them it's vrey good!
look at the other thread for the wing chun group that he started out with, I'll reprint their address here
http://home.clara.net/buddhistwingchun/
I have a video by them it's vrey good!
Kata Applications
Thanks jorvik! One of the things I've found interesting with this book is that he seems to go out of his way to not state the particular karate and kung fu styles he's trained in. As far as I've seen, in this book he only ever states that he has training in "Karate" and "Kung Fu". I assume he does that to further emphasize his central idea about getting away from stylistic differences and back to underlying principles...or maybe it's just to emphasize that he has went his own way but still wants to list some training creditials.
In retrospect, I should have included both quotes in one thread...it would have made the overall discussion easier I think. There is quite a bit in this book that could be good topics for discussion (and I'm not even done with it yet), I merely picked out two that particularly caught my eye. The truly nice thing is that it synthesizes in one source many bits and pieces of ideas that I've seen scattered around in other places and by other martial artists.
Whether you agree with the author or not, I recommend this book.
I agree with the sentiment about not getting hung up on creditials. Let's discuss the ideas, regardless of who presents them.
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Glenn
In retrospect, I should have included both quotes in one thread...it would have made the overall discussion easier I think. There is quite a bit in this book that could be good topics for discussion (and I'm not even done with it yet), I merely picked out two that particularly caught my eye. The truly nice thing is that it synthesizes in one source many bits and pieces of ideas that I've seen scattered around in other places and by other martial artists.
Whether you agree with the author or not, I recommend this book.
I agree with the sentiment about not getting hung up on creditials. Let's discuss the ideas, regardless of who presents them.
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Glenn
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maxwell ainley
- Posts: 1690
- Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: england
Kata Applications
GLENN,
I have had a few talks with Nathan,a couple of years ago.
One talk was centered around [Naihanchi]which I was familiar with ,from the wado school version ,we discussed his submitting of a article on [Naihanchi,s]grappling application ,of which Nathan was subjected to a blackening of character ,for suggesting the grappling application ,plus some respect and interest from others .
Nathan came across to me quite simply as a nice easy going man invloved in research of the three chinese kata and application .
Like Nathan my own research is on three kata but we saw things quite different on the study of them , but agreed on some out comes .
max ainley
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max ainley
I have had a few talks with Nathan,a couple of years ago.
One talk was centered around [Naihanchi]which I was familiar with ,from the wado school version ,we discussed his submitting of a article on [Naihanchi,s]grappling application ,of which Nathan was subjected to a blackening of character ,for suggesting the grappling application ,plus some respect and interest from others .
Nathan came across to me quite simply as a nice easy going man invloved in research of the three chinese kata and application .
Like Nathan my own research is on three kata but we saw things quite different on the study of them , but agreed on some out comes .
max ainley
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max ainley
