Hello everyone,
The UVA Uechi-ryu club is hosting Sensei Joe Aldridge on saturday 11/9 for a pressure point and infighting seminar. Joe-sensei is a teacher and practitioner of okinawan kempo and torite-jutsu.
Time/place: Memorial gymnasium, room 120, 2-5PM on Saturday, 11/9
$10 per person
It'll definitely be some great training, and all styles and experience levels are welcome.
Please email me if you are interested, or if you have any questions (mikekeller@att.net).
Best,
Mike
UVA Uechi-ryu
UVA Pressure Point Seminar - 11/9
Moderator: Available
UVA Pressure Point Seminar - 11/9
Hello all,
Thanks to everyone who attended the seminar, it was definitely a good time.
Bill-sensei, thank you for taking the time to come over to cville. Having a uechi senior's perspective on Joe's stuff was really great.
It was refreshing to see new interpretations of old techniques.
Thanks again.
Mike
Thanks to everyone who attended the seminar, it was definitely a good time.
Bill-sensei, thank you for taking the time to come over to cville. Having a uechi senior's perspective on Joe's stuff was really great.
It was refreshing to see new interpretations of old techniques.
Thanks again.
Mike
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Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
UVA Pressure Point Seminar - 11/9
Hi Mike,
Sorry nobody from DC was able to make it down. Sounds like it was some good fun!
Dana
Sorry nobody from DC was able to make it down. Sounds like it was some good fun!
Dana
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
UVA Pressure Point Seminar - 11/9
It was a pleasure getting together with the Charlottesville gang and working through the various techniques. I'd like to present a quick "review" of the visit.
To start with, Joe Aldridge is an affable but "simple" guy representing the Dragon Society International. I prefer to call all of this for what it is - targeted, sequential striking. Moneymaker and Muncy are the heads of this group.
I will refrain from talking about who learned what from whom and at one time, because one is bound to get into personality wars, and I'm not going to go there. I will however comment that this group is heaving into the "TCM" (Traditional Chinese Medicine) perspective in this field. In other words, the "theory" of targeting is based pretty much on the acupuncture meridian system, and the sequencing is based on 5-element theory cycle of destruction, yin/yang concepts, etc. From a first-principles standpoint, this isn't my cup of tea. I have problems with the theory and I have my own preferences for viewing this subject based on anatomy, physiology, and physics. From a karate history and anthropology point of view, it makes perfect sense to take the material presented by the DSI "as is" if only to understand where some of the founders of this material were coming from. After all, most of this art has its origins in China, and many generations back. From a practical point of view, an "owie point" is still an owie point, no matter how you want to talk about it.
I do begin to wince when the DSI webpage covers topics like Kirlean photography. It's the whole "chi" thing, with no apologies whatsoever. In any case, I find it best just to work out with people from these old schools of thought, and leave it at that. In the end, good training is good training, and all the other junk can be left for later. If you want a good reference on the theory, go to Paladin Press and pick up Dr. Michael Kelly's book on Dim Mak. Also check out his Dim Mak Website.
The seminar started with a series of points being described (using the acupuncture nomenclature - a standard for kyusho/tuite) and students pairing off and working with them. Most of the points worked on were on the wrist and forearm. Eventually the target areas moved to a few on shoulder, lower leg, and neck. A few extremely basic self-defense scenarios were used as pretext to finding and manipulating the points. In any case, this is pretty standard for any pressure point seminar or class.
There was a little bit of time for discussion of kata applications. But the kata discussed had little to do with the Uechi style. A view of the DSI webpage will point out their forte.
I did have a few impressions from working with this group, and they are the same impressions I get when working with many other pressure point groups, and even some firearms instruction classes. To start with, physical fitness doesn't seem to be a common theme in the cohort of individuals attracted to these fields. Perhaps the aging and/or disadvantaged warriors are eager to find any magic bullets (literally in the case of firearm instruction) that will help level the playing field. The truth of the matter is that both fields can be quite demanding from the standpoint of execution. Even with perfect knowledge of anatomy, one must deliver a blow, hold, or prod with precision and/or relaxed power. And in the case of a firearm, good results come from good posture and excellent small-motor coordination.
A second thing worth mentioning in any class like this, whether it be from Maloney or Moneymaker, is that it takes a great deal of skill to make this work on a broad array of people. It's really not a good idea to stick with one partner in a seminar. The learning worked the best when we had the opportunity to wander from body to body and find the same points on different people. Usually you could eventually find the spot, but that can take way too much time for anyone but the most experienced practitioner. But again, this is not dissimilar to what is best in any prearranged or freeform kumite work. Each person presents a unique challenge.
While Joe didn't work much on sequencing, I am convinced that he unintentionally demonstrated the concept in the class. Joe was "working on" the same uke all class long. His level of experience meant that he was hitting pretty effectively on all these points, and quite repeatedly. Well Joe was answering a question about an application of a Pinan form and using his uke and ... poof ... down went his uke. Oops! Joe accidentally hit a neck point (and not very hard), and his partner dropped.
Now I'd like to make a few comments here.
First, Dr. Kelly's book talks about how some of this can happen (most as a "vasovagal response"). The DSI gets into cycle of destruction and chi disruption to explain it all... Fine, if it works for them. In any case, practitioners should realize that you can't be going from point to point to point in a class, and not expect someone to start getting a little woozy.
But a second point worth making is that some people are more sensitive to these "KO" techniques than others. It's just the whole genetic/experience physiological variability thing. Throw a smallpox virus into a group; some will die, and some will not. Put some hot sauce on the table; some will love it and some will die from it. I've watched Jim Malone work a group before. He tends to like to find a "squealer," and then use them for the rest of the class. (Poor sap...
) I think all pressure point instructors like to do that. It's great for making an impression on a group, but the real learning and sense of value (or lack thereof) comes from working with many people rather than the ones that make you look good.
And finally, it's worth mentioning that many of the forearm and the leg points really weren't THAT big of a deal to me. Sure, I could find them on myself and could get a pain reaction. But a lot of work on these points gives you a feeling for why the Chinese developed iron shirt training, and the Uechi style has kotekitae and ashikitae. Basically it's possible - to some extent - to "immunize" yourself against extreme responses to the techniques. And in any case, most folks that have done this conditioning training for any length of time already recognize the points when they are prodded on them.
In any case, the seminar was a great opportunity to see Joe Aldridge (someone I haven't seen for several decades) and to bump in to Ted Dinwiddie as well as the U.Va. crew. It's always great to work with good people thirsty for knowledge and willing to share.
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited November 12, 2002).]
To start with, Joe Aldridge is an affable but "simple" guy representing the Dragon Society International. I prefer to call all of this for what it is - targeted, sequential striking. Moneymaker and Muncy are the heads of this group.
I will refrain from talking about who learned what from whom and at one time, because one is bound to get into personality wars, and I'm not going to go there. I will however comment that this group is heaving into the "TCM" (Traditional Chinese Medicine) perspective in this field. In other words, the "theory" of targeting is based pretty much on the acupuncture meridian system, and the sequencing is based on 5-element theory cycle of destruction, yin/yang concepts, etc. From a first-principles standpoint, this isn't my cup of tea. I have problems with the theory and I have my own preferences for viewing this subject based on anatomy, physiology, and physics. From a karate history and anthropology point of view, it makes perfect sense to take the material presented by the DSI "as is" if only to understand where some of the founders of this material were coming from. After all, most of this art has its origins in China, and many generations back. From a practical point of view, an "owie point" is still an owie point, no matter how you want to talk about it.
I do begin to wince when the DSI webpage covers topics like Kirlean photography. It's the whole "chi" thing, with no apologies whatsoever. In any case, I find it best just to work out with people from these old schools of thought, and leave it at that. In the end, good training is good training, and all the other junk can be left for later. If you want a good reference on the theory, go to Paladin Press and pick up Dr. Michael Kelly's book on Dim Mak. Also check out his Dim Mak Website.
The seminar started with a series of points being described (using the acupuncture nomenclature - a standard for kyusho/tuite) and students pairing off and working with them. Most of the points worked on were on the wrist and forearm. Eventually the target areas moved to a few on shoulder, lower leg, and neck. A few extremely basic self-defense scenarios were used as pretext to finding and manipulating the points. In any case, this is pretty standard for any pressure point seminar or class.
There was a little bit of time for discussion of kata applications. But the kata discussed had little to do with the Uechi style. A view of the DSI webpage will point out their forte.
I did have a few impressions from working with this group, and they are the same impressions I get when working with many other pressure point groups, and even some firearms instruction classes. To start with, physical fitness doesn't seem to be a common theme in the cohort of individuals attracted to these fields. Perhaps the aging and/or disadvantaged warriors are eager to find any magic bullets (literally in the case of firearm instruction) that will help level the playing field. The truth of the matter is that both fields can be quite demanding from the standpoint of execution. Even with perfect knowledge of anatomy, one must deliver a blow, hold, or prod with precision and/or relaxed power. And in the case of a firearm, good results come from good posture and excellent small-motor coordination.
A second thing worth mentioning in any class like this, whether it be from Maloney or Moneymaker, is that it takes a great deal of skill to make this work on a broad array of people. It's really not a good idea to stick with one partner in a seminar. The learning worked the best when we had the opportunity to wander from body to body and find the same points on different people. Usually you could eventually find the spot, but that can take way too much time for anyone but the most experienced practitioner. But again, this is not dissimilar to what is best in any prearranged or freeform kumite work. Each person presents a unique challenge.
While Joe didn't work much on sequencing, I am convinced that he unintentionally demonstrated the concept in the class. Joe was "working on" the same uke all class long. His level of experience meant that he was hitting pretty effectively on all these points, and quite repeatedly. Well Joe was answering a question about an application of a Pinan form and using his uke and ... poof ... down went his uke. Oops! Joe accidentally hit a neck point (and not very hard), and his partner dropped.
Now I'd like to make a few comments here.
First, Dr. Kelly's book talks about how some of this can happen (most as a "vasovagal response"). The DSI gets into cycle of destruction and chi disruption to explain it all... Fine, if it works for them. In any case, practitioners should realize that you can't be going from point to point to point in a class, and not expect someone to start getting a little woozy.
But a second point worth making is that some people are more sensitive to these "KO" techniques than others. It's just the whole genetic/experience physiological variability thing. Throw a smallpox virus into a group; some will die, and some will not. Put some hot sauce on the table; some will love it and some will die from it. I've watched Jim Malone work a group before. He tends to like to find a "squealer," and then use them for the rest of the class. (Poor sap...
) I think all pressure point instructors like to do that. It's great for making an impression on a group, but the real learning and sense of value (or lack thereof) comes from working with many people rather than the ones that make you look good.And finally, it's worth mentioning that many of the forearm and the leg points really weren't THAT big of a deal to me. Sure, I could find them on myself and could get a pain reaction. But a lot of work on these points gives you a feeling for why the Chinese developed iron shirt training, and the Uechi style has kotekitae and ashikitae. Basically it's possible - to some extent - to "immunize" yourself against extreme responses to the techniques. And in any case, most folks that have done this conditioning training for any length of time already recognize the points when they are prodded on them.
In any case, the seminar was a great opportunity to see Joe Aldridge (someone I haven't seen for several decades) and to bump in to Ted Dinwiddie as well as the U.Va. crew. It's always great to work with good people thirsty for knowledge and willing to share.
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited November 12, 2002).]
-
jorvik
UVA Pressure Point Seminar - 11/9
quote
"To start with, physical fitness doesn't seem to be a common theme in the cohort of individuals attracted to these fields. Perhaps the aging and/or disadvantaged warriors are eager to find any magic bullets (literally in the case of firearm instruction) that will help level the playing field."
There is another problem here though, and one that gives me serious cause for concern,and that is, is it really that wise to experiment on older physically unfit ( in some cases fat) individuals? aren't they more likely to have a bad reaction.....I'm not critiscing the people on this particular seminar, I haven't seen them for one thing, but that does seem to be a general thing that I've witnessed on other sites.....I mean when people won't even use non-contact head punches for safety reasons...taking a shot to the neck seems a bit off.( especially to an old fat guy.....cardio waiting to happen)
"To start with, physical fitness doesn't seem to be a common theme in the cohort of individuals attracted to these fields. Perhaps the aging and/or disadvantaged warriors are eager to find any magic bullets (literally in the case of firearm instruction) that will help level the playing field."
There is another problem here though, and one that gives me serious cause for concern,and that is, is it really that wise to experiment on older physically unfit ( in some cases fat) individuals? aren't they more likely to have a bad reaction.....I'm not critiscing the people on this particular seminar, I haven't seen them for one thing, but that does seem to be a general thing that I've witnessed on other sites.....I mean when people won't even use non-contact head punches for safety reasons...taking a shot to the neck seems a bit off.( especially to an old fat guy.....cardio waiting to happen)
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
UVA Pressure Point Seminar - 11/9
Excellent point. From the references I have been pointed to by Dr. Kelly, this does appear to be the case.
I must comment that Joe was extremely careful in the seminar; his was as good as they get. He had folks sign a waiver that included a list of instructions for how to work with the material. Practitioners were instructed to use minimal force when searching for and experimenting with techniques.
The neck thing that Joe did was strictly an accident. He had been poking on his uke all afternoon long. Then he went to do what amounted to a controlling technique (demonstration of a kata) that wasn't a lot different from the bouncer techniques Bruce Witherall was teaching us up in Maryland just a weekend ago. While moving his hand forwards to get his controlling posture, he accidentally "bumped" the guy in the lower neck with his hand. The guy just lost his legs.
This sounds far-fetched, but not really. Whether practical or not, the real fascinating thing about sequential striking is the concept that manipulation of one point (or a set of points) can make another extremely sensitive. In some instances, the vasovagal response can happen quite by accident. Ron Kline once told me he had been working on pressure point stuff with a friend during the day. He went home and was walking around his house when he bumped his "funny bone" (the ulnar nerve) on a chair. It caused him to black out. This spooked Ron so much that he subsequently became highly concerned about people working with this material without fully understanding what they were doing.
There is that one in a very many person that will experience cardiac arrest with quite an innocent hit. These cases often get the "sudden death" label and become odd anecdotes in the medical literature. Only in the last decade have people begun to fully appreciate what is going on. While this isn't the kind of response that a warrior can depend on in the battle field, the possibility of an "adverse outcome" should give pause to all. For several decades, Bruce Siddle has been attempting to put a body of work together to aid officers that experience unintended adverse outcomes in the field. The consequences to police departments and municipalities can be quite costly (never mind the unintended loss of life).
And yes, I imagine that the general state of health just might be a factor.
- Bill
I must comment that Joe was extremely careful in the seminar; his was as good as they get. He had folks sign a waiver that included a list of instructions for how to work with the material. Practitioners were instructed to use minimal force when searching for and experimenting with techniques.
The neck thing that Joe did was strictly an accident. He had been poking on his uke all afternoon long. Then he went to do what amounted to a controlling technique (demonstration of a kata) that wasn't a lot different from the bouncer techniques Bruce Witherall was teaching us up in Maryland just a weekend ago. While moving his hand forwards to get his controlling posture, he accidentally "bumped" the guy in the lower neck with his hand. The guy just lost his legs.
This sounds far-fetched, but not really. Whether practical or not, the real fascinating thing about sequential striking is the concept that manipulation of one point (or a set of points) can make another extremely sensitive. In some instances, the vasovagal response can happen quite by accident. Ron Kline once told me he had been working on pressure point stuff with a friend during the day. He went home and was walking around his house when he bumped his "funny bone" (the ulnar nerve) on a chair. It caused him to black out. This spooked Ron so much that he subsequently became highly concerned about people working with this material without fully understanding what they were doing.
There is that one in a very many person that will experience cardiac arrest with quite an innocent hit. These cases often get the "sudden death" label and become odd anecdotes in the medical literature. Only in the last decade have people begun to fully appreciate what is going on. While this isn't the kind of response that a warrior can depend on in the battle field, the possibility of an "adverse outcome" should give pause to all. For several decades, Bruce Siddle has been attempting to put a body of work together to aid officers that experience unintended adverse outcomes in the field. The consequences to police departments and municipalities can be quite costly (never mind the unintended loss of life).
And yes, I imagine that the general state of health just might be a factor.
- Bill
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
UVA Pressure Point Seminar - 11/9
For reference purposes, here is Bruce Siddle's PPCT Website.
UVA Pressure Point Seminar - 11/9
Wow.How many years must one live to receive so many black belts?Do not believe I have ever seen so many accomodations on one page.Impressive?
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jorvik
UVA Pressure Point Seminar - 11/9
Bill.
I did check out Dr.Kelly's website, and he does make mention of that. The website seems to have improved since the last time I visited it.There is a clip of dr.Kelly doing a sequential knockout strike. Quite impressive......I remember when there was a discussion about his book a while back, and as you so rightly pointed out at the time a lot of people were a bit jaundiced about this type of thing generally, so perhaps he didn't get quite the reception he deserved ( anyway, it was only you and Ian who understood what he was on about). I know that if I were going to get into that sort of thing seriously I would need at least one medical practitioner there, when I was training....I suppose that I am a belt and braces man, in some endeavours thats not a bad thing though.
I did check out Dr.Kelly's website, and he does make mention of that. The website seems to have improved since the last time I visited it.There is a clip of dr.Kelly doing a sequential knockout strike. Quite impressive......I remember when there was a discussion about his book a while back, and as you so rightly pointed out at the time a lot of people were a bit jaundiced about this type of thing generally, so perhaps he didn't get quite the reception he deserved ( anyway, it was only you and Ian who understood what he was on about). I know that if I were going to get into that sort of thing seriously I would need at least one medical practitioner there, when I was training....I suppose that I am a belt and braces man, in some endeavours thats not a bad thing though.
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Ted Dinwiddie
- Posts: 537
- Joined: Thu Sep 16, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Charlottesville,VA,USA
It is interesting to note the number of people who attended this seminar with little or no Martial Arts training. I was teaching basic stances and blocks to two guys I was working with. One of whom had NO training at all, but saw a flyer on a board at UVa, and another who had no basics training. I hope neither of these guys left there feeling like they had aquired any capability.
ted
"There's only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - P.J. O'Rourke
"There's only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - P.J. O'Rourke
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Ted
This reminds me a bit of the board breaking that used to be the BFD of martial arts past. Some of the same folks that were mercilessly killing trees, wasting building material, and crushing ice (sort of... all who have done it know the tricks of the trade) are now wrapping themselves in the pressure point cloak to bring home the bacon. It creates excitement, and gets people to sign up I suppose.
It's like most things... There are reputable establishments, and then there are those outfits that aren't a lot different from what we see on infomercials and bothered with by telemarketers. Anything in demand (like weight loss tips) is worth exploiting by those interested in the dollar over a quality product. The good ones just have to work extra hard to distinguish themselves.
Actually I have no sympathy for anyone that would think a single seminar and no regular training would endow them with any sort of ability. P.T. Barnum had it right. Such people deserve what they get. I am only concerned about the scruples of the people delivering the goods.
- Bill
This reminds me a bit of the board breaking that used to be the BFD of martial arts past. Some of the same folks that were mercilessly killing trees, wasting building material, and crushing ice (sort of... all who have done it know the tricks of the trade) are now wrapping themselves in the pressure point cloak to bring home the bacon. It creates excitement, and gets people to sign up I suppose.
It's like most things... There are reputable establishments, and then there are those outfits that aren't a lot different from what we see on infomercials and bothered with by telemarketers. Anything in demand (like weight loss tips) is worth exploiting by those interested in the dollar over a quality product. The good ones just have to work extra hard to distinguish themselves.
Actually I have no sympathy for anyone that would think a single seminar and no regular training would endow them with any sort of ability. P.T. Barnum had it right. Such people deserve what they get. I am only concerned about the scruples of the people delivering the goods.
- Bill
