Why aren't any asian grappling arts nearly as popular as st

KingCrimson · Post by **KingCrimson** » Fri Apr 19, 2002 10:52 pm

I have read about many interesting and effective asian grappling arts, but none of them are nearly as showcased as their striking counterparts here in north america, and I was wondering why not? Being primarily a grappler, this sort of bugs me. Your positive thoughts and comments would be appreciated.

------------------
I'll make you TAP!!

Gene DeMambro · Post by **Gene DeMambro** » Sat Apr 20, 2002 12:23 am

You are going to have to be a bit more specific: What arts do you think are underpopularized, etc?

Pres. Teddy Roosevelt used to invite "Japanese wrestlers" (judoka) to The White House for some fun and games.

The recent success of the Gracie JJ stylists in the UFC and other NHB events added to the popularity of grappling arts. Now everyone wants to get into grappling! Read the forum archives for some posts on "Why stand-up martial artists won't last in a fight with a wrestler", or the like.

Sport judo has always been somewhat popular in North America. General Curtis LeMay, the first CO of the US Air Force, was a judo student and he decreed that all Air Force pilots will learn judo, in case of being shot down behind enemy lines.

Even in Japan, judo is waning in popularity, but "shoot fighting" is WAY up.

Aikido, of course, has always been reasonable popular. It has that air of mysticism surrounding it as well.

So, I don't rightly know if I agree with you, per se. Maybe some examples?

But maybe you are right in that they aren't as showcased as the "striking arts", but what is a true "striking art", and what so-called striking arts have grappling techniques and concepts in their forms?

Enjoy!
Gene

Halford · Post by **Halford** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 3:20 pm

One big reason that most obscure and little-known grappling systems of Asia, and that is a huge area,indeed, is that there are few teachers of such in the US and theWest, but a few are begining to come out of the woodwork,so to speak. For instance, Mongolian, Tibetan, and area wrestling found in the Turkish/Greek/Russian,Ukrainian,etc. regions are finding some demonstration,exhibition, etc. now and then in various places,usually as cultural entertainment,etc. The more well-known forms are also beginning to gain some adherants in places. The list is quite extensive in fact. Too much for me to give from pure memory of mine,which means I have forgotten more about martial arts, than most people remember! Tha's not bragging, just fact, by the way, as other things take up my concentration these days. HOWEVER, I am trying to obtain articles from various groups around the world on these things that are not well-known,etc. for FILIPINO MARTIAL ARTS MAGAZINE. I am not sure how much luck I will have as some are always on the move! For example, I am trying to have Eliot Shearer, the publisher, do a special issue on MARTIAL ARTS OF INDIA,etc. I do have some contributors lined up for this and am looking for a few more. As Executive Editor I want to also include other martial arts as well as the Philippine ones to keep and extend readership. If you want such to be in the magazine, then send comments and requests to: EDITOR@filipinomag.com and PUBLISHER@filipinomag.com Thanks for your time and keep up the good work. Halford

unkotare · Post by **unkotare** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 12:44 am

Halford wrote:The list is quite extensive in fact. Too much for me to give from pure memory of mine,which means I have forgotten more about martial arts, than most people remember! Tha's not bragging, just fact, by the way

Maybe that didn't come out the way you intended it to, but...

mikemurphy · Post by **mikemurphy** » Fri Apr 15, 2005 4:45 pm

I'm going to shoot from the hip here, but I think the reasoning has more to do with the advent of the "do" arts and the remission of the "jitsu" arts in general. Look at Jujitsu (the mother of all Japanese arts) for example. Very popular in the days of feudal Japan. Why? Because they needed it. It was an extension of the sword and kobudo arts. The old school Jujitsu arts bred the more modern forms such as Judo and Aikido to mention only a couple. Now, they have spawned other arts as well.

The fact is, there are very few old school systems left, because the popularity of the "do" forms have seen to that, albiet unintentionally. Concerning other grappling arts from China, I would say that whatever is still practiced there, is very much guarded by the curtain of Communism and the 2nd World ideology. As that country becomes more open, perhaps we will see a difference. Who knows?

Other countries with somewhat indigenous/modern grappling arts, such as Russia, Brazil (now), Israel, Turkey, etc. are more or less fads that will come and go in a cyclical fashion. As much as I admire all of them, Brazilian Jujitsu does not seem as popular as it once was 4 or 5 years ago. Grav Magna (sp?) is waning. I say this from the perspective of a dojo owner who gets the publications and sees what's hot in the country.

I could be all wet on this, I really don't know, but I think that grappling in a general sense is on the upswing and will continue to be. It might never be as popular as the "do" arts, but it will have its own nitch in the grand scheme of things.

mike

f.Channell · Post by **f.Channell** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 3:01 am

There are a lot of Sambo people emigrating to this country as well.

I think a big part of grappling not getting as big as striking arts is it doesn't have the flash.

At the ultimate fighting event I went to the people around me looked bored watching during an extended match on the ground.

You never see it used in the movies much for the same reason.

Effective and fun but it's not for everyone.

Imagine the 80 year old lady doing Tai-Chi. She's not going to roll around on the ground for 60 minutes.

But I know a couple 80 year old guys that will!

F.

Josann · Post by **Josann** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 12:02 pm

Let's be honest. Most people, even those in uechi, don't really want to know if they can really apply their art. they'd rather do kata and sanchin and feel that they could do some damage in a real confrontation. Grappling Judo Ju Jitsu BJJ sambo, etc is just too much work and too hard. Most find it much to merely punch air and think they could be effective. Too bad. Uechi ryu is a great base for most grappling arts. To each his own i guess.

Josann

AAAhmed46 · Post by **AAAhmed46** » Mon May 02, 2005 2:58 am

Hell, look a uechi ryu! No one really knows about that.

Also, another reason few grappling arts is popular is eliteism in many teachers. My old style was bando karate, it had quite alot of grappling in it for a karate style. But my master wanted to teach it only to a select few:His freinds children and anyone willing to sit out side the dojo one hour before class starts without moving a muscle and who would train 4 hours a day everyday non stop. Why? Because somehow some masters get the idea that no one should know thier styles because somehow they think thier better then anyone else.

Why do you think no one knows too much about bando and lithwei? Because those burmese martial arts come from communists countries, and and because of that, many parents and masters say to thier students. "Hey, lets act like a secret society and be selective to who we teach."

mikemurphy · Post by **mikemurphy** » Mon May 02, 2005 8:49 pm

Josann,

I'm sure you didn't mean to say "most people" in this post. That is, of course, you have met and spoken with "most people" who train in any art. I'm reading your post and I'm assuming that you do not study an empty hand art and that you are a grappler of sorts? If so, I would say that you are incorrect to assume that those who practice form are not effective. Because what you say strongly suggests that you believe one art is better than another. To that I would strongly disagree. I study both an empty hand art and a grappling art (jujitsu), and they work for me because of my desire for them to work for me. Those who simply train a grappling art or a kobudo art could say the same thing for them. What I'm saying is that every individual is different. Effectiveness relies on how much a person trains in whatever art they take. Let's not simply put everyone into a group for a blanket statement.

<<Let's be honest. Most people, even those in uechi, don't really want to know if they can really apply their art. they'd rather do kata and sanchin and feel that they could do some damage in a real confrontation. Grappling Judo Ju Jitsu BJJ sambo, etc is just too much work and too hard. Most find it much to merely punch air and think they could be effective. Too bad. Uechi ryu is a great base for most grappling arts. To each his own i guess. >>

Aaahmed,

When did Burma go Communist?

mike

Norm Abrahamson · Post by **Norm Abrahamson** » Mon May 02, 2005 9:24 pm

AAAhmed46:

Where did you study Bando? I studied it for 2 years when I lived in Worcester, 1980-1982. I studied with Bob Platukis and had the pleasure of meeting and training a little (very little) with Dr. Gyi (sp?). Granted, I only studied Bando for 2 years, but we did a lot of form work. There were empty hand and weapons forms as well as 2 man pre-arranged sets. We really didn't do any grappling, although that could have been because of Mr. Platukis' preference.

Sincerely,

Norm Abrahamson

Josann · Post by **Josann** » Mon May 02, 2005 10:39 pm

Mike:
I have 15 years in uechi and am a yondan. I have less than 1 year in small circle ju jitsu. My statement is based on the lack of grappling that we do in uechi. Yeah, i know many of us say it "is in uechi" but for most of us we don't really learn how to blend uechi and grappling. This is why I study jujitsu. As for what art is better, that's hard to say. Uechi is the base for how i apply all of it. And if I had to say which striking art is the best I'd say uechi ryu without hesitation. the natural stance and upright posture is well suited for defense and adaptation to grappling arts. What I meant is that not enough of us are willing to put ourselves through what it takes to be able to defend in a practical situation. I feel that the study of jujitsu has deepend my appreciation for uechi and has made my kata study a lot more meaningful. I certainly didn't intend to diss the reasons why anybody studies uechi or anything else for that matter.

Josann

mikemurphy · Post by **mikemurphy** » Tue May 03, 2005 12:52 am

Josann,

Thanks for the explanation. What you were saying makes more sense.

mike

Post by **gmattson** » Wed May 04, 2005 10:53 am

know where Maung Gyi is?

We used to run into one another many time at tournaments throughout the country.

I remember him as being a very intelligent and personable individual. He was also quite a capable martial artist.

AAAhmed46 · Post by **AAAhmed46** » Sat May 07, 2005 9:24 pm

Deleted for posting twice.

AAAhmed46 · Post by **AAAhmed46** » Sat May 07, 2005 9:24 pm

AAAhmed46:

Where did you study Bando? I studied it for 2 years when I lived in Worcester, 1980-1982. I studied with Bob Platukis and had the pleasure of meeting and training a little (very little) with Dr. Gyi (sp?). Granted, I only studied Bando for 2 years, but we did a lot of form work. There were empty hand and weapons forms as well as 2 man pre-arranged sets. We really didn't do any grappling, although that could have been because of Mr. Platukis' preference.

Sincerely,

Norm Abrahamson

It was not bando, it was bando karate. Which is basically shotokan merged with....well bando and lithwei or whatever its called. IT was created by a shotokan fighter from india who went to burma. I forgot his name, but my former master trained under him, and has a direct linage.

I studied it for 4 years. THe first two years was because my father FORCED me to study it, i hated it but because there was 'karate' behind it, i did NOT want to learn it because all the kids in school believed karate sucked. But after sitting there for two years i was actually into it, and started training seriously for another 2 years. But by that time, the master lost real interest in teaching then he had in the beginning.

Yes, there WAS alot of form work. Most of what i did was shotokan, but there were some significant differences in the stances, and placement and philosophy. The higher level students techniques looked very different then what i was learning, i left for WKS when i started the higher level techniques.

What i can tell you is that alot of the higher level striking looked like muay thai, but there was a fair bit of grappling in what I saw.

My master was india's former karate champion mohammed Ahmed, anyone heard of him? He was very very very fast and strong and good at almost every aspect of fighting, but his teaching was filled with traditionalism(You got hit or yelled at if you smiled) and was very very cookie cutter.
Also, i suspected that he stopped caring about his students.

WHen you met Mr.Gyi, did he teach in a very strict manner Mr.Abrahamson?

For those who dont know, Dr.Gyi is the guy who basically brought Bando to the outside world.

ANd i dont think burma is burma anymore, i think its called Mayamar or somthing like that. All i know is that the art of bando is pretty isolated from the world, acording to this article i read on a martial arts website, i think it was 'about.com' or 'ask.com' or something like that. There is an article at 'mayamar.com' NOTE: MY SPELLING FOR THESE PLACES IS HORRIBLE,HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE,
Anywhoo does what i said sound like what you studied Norm?