Was thinking about this since if there was a thread on it, I missed it, and over on the woman's forum Panther mentioned the POS who tossed a gagged and bound woman into a river to drown her and ended up on death row. I vacillate on the subject because I think those kinds of punks aren't redeemable, but, don't like the idea of ending a human life. So instead of posting an opinion, here's some food for thought:
Pros:
Potential deterrent
Eye for an Eye Thing
No more crime, guaranteed
? They deserve it
Closure for some victims / family
Holds up some social standards
Cons
I'm told, more costly than life in prison
Can be very hard on executioners
Mistakes are permanent (innocent can die)
Contrary to certain christian doctrines
about forgiveness and redemption (what
would Jesus do? Throw the switch??)
? reduces us to their level
According to many, applied with bias against
poor and minorities
Cruelty factor
Can martyr the offender or fulfill his/her wishes
One basic I would like to see is a requirement for dna evidence or other certainty. I once saw interviews with a man (imprisoned for rape on the testimony of his victim), and his "victim," who was plain wrong. There goes a few decades of his life. At least he wasn't executed.
What do people think? Method of choice? Would you throw the switch? If so, do you think that lessens you? And, given the predominant religion in this country, what do you think the waiver is for the specific commandment regarding switch throwing, or, what is your other religious or ethical tradition on this one?
Death Penalty
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lori macleod-doyle
- Posts: 232
- Joined: Tue Aug 03, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: lr.sackville n.s. canada
Death Penalty
Ian,
Have you ever had someone close to you raped,murdered,or brutalized in any way?
Do you think that that would effect your views on capital punishment?
If you are lucky enough to not have personal experience in this area then I don't think you can truely understand the effect it has on so many aspects of your life.
I,unfortunatly,have experience in this area and although I don't speak of it often ,it is something that will be with me for the rest of my life.
My personal take on this is that the POS who tore my family apart and was proven guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt, had no regard for human life ,so why should I give a rats ass about his! Why should my tax dollars go to feed,clothe,educate and entertain him for the rest of his miserable life?
As for your criteria, he is white,a repeat offender and showed no remorse throughout the whole trial process.(of which there were two)
I say give him a shot and put him out of our misery.
Forgive me if I sound bitter or angry but after sixteen years it still hurts.
Lori M-D
Have you ever had someone close to you raped,murdered,or brutalized in any way?
Do you think that that would effect your views on capital punishment?
If you are lucky enough to not have personal experience in this area then I don't think you can truely understand the effect it has on so many aspects of your life.
I,unfortunatly,have experience in this area and although I don't speak of it often ,it is something that will be with me for the rest of my life.
My personal take on this is that the POS who tore my family apart and was proven guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt, had no regard for human life ,so why should I give a rats ass about his! Why should my tax dollars go to feed,clothe,educate and entertain him for the rest of his miserable life?
As for your criteria, he is white,a repeat offender and showed no remorse throughout the whole trial process.(of which there were two)
I say give him a shot and put him out of our misery.
Forgive me if I sound bitter or angry but after sixteen years it still hurts.
Lori M-D
Death Penalty
"Have you ever had someone close to you raped, murdered,or brutalized in any way?"
Well, *I've* been attacked in some capacities, but probably not in the manner you're referring to. I also had a friend who was "date" raped in college. She wouldn't have even THOUGHT about killing this guy. So, no experience with a devastating crime the kind of which you were referring to.
"Do you think that that would effect your views on capital punishment?"
It's certainly possible, but I already support the death penalty for certain P'sOS. I have seen a number of interviews with people who suffered a traumatic loss and wanted the offender dead, and some others who felt that another killing wouldn't do anything to help their loved one and would only stain their hands, and lastly some unusual cases like a psychotic son who sought care repeatedly and was refused and ended up killing his mother. Now, on medication, he only knows suffering for what he did. But the rest of the family supports him in his struggle.
In general, these questions sound a little bit like a test of my qualifications and an assumption that I'm anti-death penalty, which is fine, but not quite right. Basically it comes down to me deciding that I don't ever want to take another human life, but I agreed Tim McVeigh forfitted his right to life and my only concern about his execution was that it might encourage more terrorism.
"My personal take on this is that the POS who tore my family apart and was proven guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt, had no regard for human life, so why should I give a rats ass about his!"
Some considerations are personal, and I'm not saying you should or should not have them, just that they're in the range of responses victims and family have. Some people feel that if the offender is rehabilitated, that's the only good thing that can come out of the event. Others feel that even if he's a monster, they don't want to sink to his level. Or violate their religious beliefs. (I'm not a devout Christian, but I just don't see Jesus throwing the switch, and I thought the point was to follow his example.) Or that for larger reasons (martyring him or giving into his wishes to be executed) they don't want to do it. Lastly, some people proven guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt... weren't in the state the night of the crime. The woman I described above was RAPED face to face by a man and she later misidentified another man as that criminal. Oops.
"Why should my tax dollars go to feed, clothe, educate and entertain him for the rest of his miserable life?"
As I mentioned above, with all the appeals and hearings, the cost of an execution is frequently more expensive than life in jail (secondhand data though). I'm not much on the entertainment, but, in the maximum security prison I toured, all the TV's were purchased by inmates with their own funds, though there may have been one for the entire cell block. It was a withering virginia summer in an unairconditioned cellblock with a single fan, too. Outside, people who run are shot on sight. Not my idea of fun.
It doesn't apply to the soon-to-fry, but let me put in a plug for prison education. My father works in the maryland prison education system, and while his experience is that "why should I pay for thugs free education when I'm already shelling out billions for college" is superficially appealing, and makes good election season speak, it doesn't help out in the end. The thief who learns nothing in prison emerges a bitter thief. Society benefits, in the long run, from rehabilitation more than punitive incarceration.
Well, *I've* been attacked in some capacities, but probably not in the manner you're referring to. I also had a friend who was "date" raped in college. She wouldn't have even THOUGHT about killing this guy. So, no experience with a devastating crime the kind of which you were referring to.
"Do you think that that would effect your views on capital punishment?"
It's certainly possible, but I already support the death penalty for certain P'sOS. I have seen a number of interviews with people who suffered a traumatic loss and wanted the offender dead, and some others who felt that another killing wouldn't do anything to help their loved one and would only stain their hands, and lastly some unusual cases like a psychotic son who sought care repeatedly and was refused and ended up killing his mother. Now, on medication, he only knows suffering for what he did. But the rest of the family supports him in his struggle.
In general, these questions sound a little bit like a test of my qualifications and an assumption that I'm anti-death penalty, which is fine, but not quite right. Basically it comes down to me deciding that I don't ever want to take another human life, but I agreed Tim McVeigh forfitted his right to life and my only concern about his execution was that it might encourage more terrorism.
"My personal take on this is that the POS who tore my family apart and was proven guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt, had no regard for human life, so why should I give a rats ass about his!"
Some considerations are personal, and I'm not saying you should or should not have them, just that they're in the range of responses victims and family have. Some people feel that if the offender is rehabilitated, that's the only good thing that can come out of the event. Others feel that even if he's a monster, they don't want to sink to his level. Or violate their religious beliefs. (I'm not a devout Christian, but I just don't see Jesus throwing the switch, and I thought the point was to follow his example.) Or that for larger reasons (martyring him or giving into his wishes to be executed) they don't want to do it. Lastly, some people proven guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt... weren't in the state the night of the crime. The woman I described above was RAPED face to face by a man and she later misidentified another man as that criminal. Oops.
"Why should my tax dollars go to feed, clothe, educate and entertain him for the rest of his miserable life?"
As I mentioned above, with all the appeals and hearings, the cost of an execution is frequently more expensive than life in jail (secondhand data though). I'm not much on the entertainment, but, in the maximum security prison I toured, all the TV's were purchased by inmates with their own funds, though there may have been one for the entire cell block. It was a withering virginia summer in an unairconditioned cellblock with a single fan, too. Outside, people who run are shot on sight. Not my idea of fun.
It doesn't apply to the soon-to-fry, but let me put in a plug for prison education. My father works in the maryland prison education system, and while his experience is that "why should I pay for thugs free education when I'm already shelling out billions for college" is superficially appealing, and makes good election season speak, it doesn't help out in the end. The thief who learns nothing in prison emerges a bitter thief. Society benefits, in the long run, from rehabilitation more than punitive incarceration.
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lori macleod-doyle
- Posts: 232
- Joined: Tue Aug 03, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: lr.sackville n.s. canada
Death Penalty
Ian,
I apologize if it seemed I was "testing your qualifications." That was not my intention.
" Some considerations are personal, and I'm not saying you should or should not have them, just that they're in the range of responses victims and family have."
You are right,these are the responses of a victim's family. And I don't apologize for how I feel.You asked for opinions and I have offered mine,from my point of view. I'm not saying that it is right or wrong,just mine.
"The thief who learns nothing in prison emerges a bitter thief. Society benefits, in the long run, from rehabilitation more than punitive incarceration. "
Don't get me wrong, I do believe in rehabilitation where it can be applied,but when do you stop trying to rehab those who clearly are not interested in rehabilitating themselves? How many times must a person kill befor he is considered a lost cause?
The "gentleman" who killed my brother had killed twice before. Should he still be given another chance to kill?
Lori M-D
I apologize if it seemed I was "testing your qualifications." That was not my intention.
" Some considerations are personal, and I'm not saying you should or should not have them, just that they're in the range of responses victims and family have."
You are right,these are the responses of a victim's family. And I don't apologize for how I feel.You asked for opinions and I have offered mine,from my point of view. I'm not saying that it is right or wrong,just mine.
"The thief who learns nothing in prison emerges a bitter thief. Society benefits, in the long run, from rehabilitation more than punitive incarceration. "
Don't get me wrong, I do believe in rehabilitation where it can be applied,but when do you stop trying to rehab those who clearly are not interested in rehabilitating themselves? How many times must a person kill befor he is considered a lost cause?
The "gentleman" who killed my brother had killed twice before. Should he still be given another chance to kill?
Lori M-D
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Ted Dinwiddie
- Posts: 537
- Joined: Thu Sep 16, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Charlottesville,VA,USA
Death Penalty
I see the death penalty issue from several angles.
First, is the convicted person redeemable? No clear answer there, but is there a reasonable chance? Now, the fact that the penal system is probably not set up to rehabilitate, despite lip service to the contrary, is another issue.
If the convicted person is judged by society to be unredeemable and no longer fit to be part of that society, then why warehouse them? Use them for fertilizer.
Another perspective is that of punishment. We are not going to "fix" the convict (rehabilitate) we are going to make them pay for their crime. This could mean financial restitution and it could mean torture. The convict must know the horror of their crime and regret it. Cruel and Unusual? For the man that tortures and rapes and mutilates there is nothing cruel and unusual enough for his punishment.
Rehabilitation and punishment have some common ground, but I see the difference as "make the convict better" or "make the convict pay."
Then comes vengeance... The family and friends of the victim want that scum to fry. They are in unbelievable pain and knowing that b@st@rd is dead or watching him die is what they think they need to get through their pain. Understandable to be sure. My only addendum to that sentiment is that I want to do it myself, and I want that POS to suffer badly.
Punishment and vengeance have common ground also. I see the difference there as "make the convict pay" or "I'll feel better if I can make him pay and pay and pay..."
So, we as a society should not kill a redeemable convict. We as a society should not need to care for those we deem unredeemable and should permanently expunge them from our society. They should be euthanized (fertilizer).
But, we as a society want the convict to understand the error of their ways and suffer for them and understand why they are suffering. Death is too good for some that fall into this category. Painless euthanasia is definitely not the way McVeigh should have died. Drawing and Quartering in the public square has merit in such a case.
Lesser crimes may merit corporal punishment. The caning of those vandal brats in Singapore a few years ago comes to mind. Other crimes may merit finacial restitution. It depends.
In my mind, the Death Penalty question comes down to this: Are we as a society killing the convict to expunge him from our ranks and be done with him? Or, are we trying to make this person pay the highest possible price for the pain and suffering we have endured because of him? If the former, then lethal injection. If the latter then let our imaginations be the only limit to the spectacle of our public rage.
Salem Witch Trials? Lynchings? Caligula?
We as a society are unclear as to our motives and objectives.
ted
First, is the convicted person redeemable? No clear answer there, but is there a reasonable chance? Now, the fact that the penal system is probably not set up to rehabilitate, despite lip service to the contrary, is another issue.
If the convicted person is judged by society to be unredeemable and no longer fit to be part of that society, then why warehouse them? Use them for fertilizer.
Another perspective is that of punishment. We are not going to "fix" the convict (rehabilitate) we are going to make them pay for their crime. This could mean financial restitution and it could mean torture. The convict must know the horror of their crime and regret it. Cruel and Unusual? For the man that tortures and rapes and mutilates there is nothing cruel and unusual enough for his punishment.
Rehabilitation and punishment have some common ground, but I see the difference as "make the convict better" or "make the convict pay."
Then comes vengeance... The family and friends of the victim want that scum to fry. They are in unbelievable pain and knowing that b@st@rd is dead or watching him die is what they think they need to get through their pain. Understandable to be sure. My only addendum to that sentiment is that I want to do it myself, and I want that POS to suffer badly.
Punishment and vengeance have common ground also. I see the difference there as "make the convict pay" or "I'll feel better if I can make him pay and pay and pay..."
So, we as a society should not kill a redeemable convict. We as a society should not need to care for those we deem unredeemable and should permanently expunge them from our society. They should be euthanized (fertilizer).
But, we as a society want the convict to understand the error of their ways and suffer for them and understand why they are suffering. Death is too good for some that fall into this category. Painless euthanasia is definitely not the way McVeigh should have died. Drawing and Quartering in the public square has merit in such a case.
Lesser crimes may merit corporal punishment. The caning of those vandal brats in Singapore a few years ago comes to mind. Other crimes may merit finacial restitution. It depends.
In my mind, the Death Penalty question comes down to this: Are we as a society killing the convict to expunge him from our ranks and be done with him? Or, are we trying to make this person pay the highest possible price for the pain and suffering we have endured because of him? If the former, then lethal injection. If the latter then let our imaginations be the only limit to the spectacle of our public rage.
Salem Witch Trials? Lynchings? Caligula?
We as a society are unclear as to our motives and objectives.
ted
Death Penalty
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ted Dinwiddie:
First, is the convicted person redeemable? No clear answer there, but is there a reasonable chance?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It is almost impossible to 'redeem a person' who does not want to be redeemed. And all those who are saying "look what this... fellow.. did" are not going to be pleased with the amount of money it would cost to REALLY pull someone out of an environment in which they'll just comit more crimes, or take the time to figure out why they're comitting crimes, if it's not obvious.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Then comes vengeance... The family and friends of the victim want that scum to fry. They are in unbelievable pain and knowing that b@st@rd is dead or watching him die is what they think they need to get through their pain. Understandable to be sure. My only addendum to that sentiment is that I want to do it myself, and I want that POS to suffer badly.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Is vengence really te sort of ideal that we'd like to support as a society/
Punishment and vengeance have common ground also. I see the difference there as "make the convict pay" or "I'll feel better if I can make him pay and pay and pay..."
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Drawing and Quartering in the public square has merit in such a case.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think we already make quite a spectacle of human suffering and misery without this sort of thing. Encouraging people to delight in the unhappiness of others, even if they are criminals, I think is contrary to having a civilized society.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>In my mind, the Death Penalty question comes down to this: Are we as a society killing the convict to expunge him from our ranks and be done with him? Or, are we trying to make this person pay the highest possible price for the pain and suffering we have endured because of him? If the former, then lethal injection. If the latter then let our imaginations be the only limit to the spectacle of our public rage.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Again, what is the point in torturing people? Because it makes us feel warm and fuzzy to know that a human being is experiencing misery that they caused someone else? I think this is what the death penalty comes down to a lot of times, and probably the reason some states continue to use the electric chair instead of less awful methods. Because like two kids fighting in the back seat of a station wagon, we love to know that we got the last, hardest hit.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>We as a society are unclear as to our motives and objectives.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree totally. I think the issue of what we think we're doing with punishment for crimes in general is confused. Read "they chose honor" a book about draft resisters in prison, written by a psychologist. It pretty clearly shows how the prison system is not only horrible, but is also counterproductive to the idea of redemption. I don't have a solution, but I think that there's a lot of problems with the way justice is handed out.
As far as the death penalty itself goes, even apart from the morality of whether it should exist, I think that the logistical issues involved with applying it make it a bad idea anyway. Innoccents being convicted, racial bias, all that sort of thing.
First, is the convicted person redeemable? No clear answer there, but is there a reasonable chance?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It is almost impossible to 'redeem a person' who does not want to be redeemed. And all those who are saying "look what this... fellow.. did" are not going to be pleased with the amount of money it would cost to REALLY pull someone out of an environment in which they'll just comit more crimes, or take the time to figure out why they're comitting crimes, if it's not obvious.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
I've always found this point interesting. People say that prison inmates are "paying their debt to society" but I don't really understand in what way society is benefiting from their imprisonment. Yeah, this person is no longer comitting crimes, but it's not like they're doing anything positive for society by rotting in prison either.This could mean financial restitution and it could mean torture. The convict must know the horror of their crime and regret it.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Then comes vengeance... The family and friends of the victim want that scum to fry. They are in unbelievable pain and knowing that b@st@rd is dead or watching him die is what they think they need to get through their pain. Understandable to be sure. My only addendum to that sentiment is that I want to do it myself, and I want that POS to suffer badly.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Is vengence really te sort of ideal that we'd like to support as a society/
Punishment and vengeance have common ground also. I see the difference there as "make the convict pay" or "I'll feel better if I can make him pay and pay and pay..."
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
I think this is the most important point, that what we really want is to be rid of these people. It's just too bad that it's not possible to exile anybody.We as a society should not need to care for those we deem unredeemable and should permanently expunge them from our society. They should be euthanized (fertilizer).
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Drawing and Quartering in the public square has merit in such a case.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think we already make quite a spectacle of human suffering and misery without this sort of thing. Encouraging people to delight in the unhappiness of others, even if they are criminals, I think is contrary to having a civilized society.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>In my mind, the Death Penalty question comes down to this: Are we as a society killing the convict to expunge him from our ranks and be done with him? Or, are we trying to make this person pay the highest possible price for the pain and suffering we have endured because of him? If the former, then lethal injection. If the latter then let our imaginations be the only limit to the spectacle of our public rage.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Again, what is the point in torturing people? Because it makes us feel warm and fuzzy to know that a human being is experiencing misery that they caused someone else? I think this is what the death penalty comes down to a lot of times, and probably the reason some states continue to use the electric chair instead of less awful methods. Because like two kids fighting in the back seat of a station wagon, we love to know that we got the last, hardest hit.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>We as a society are unclear as to our motives and objectives.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree totally. I think the issue of what we think we're doing with punishment for crimes in general is confused. Read "they chose honor" a book about draft resisters in prison, written by a psychologist. It pretty clearly shows how the prison system is not only horrible, but is also counterproductive to the idea of redemption. I don't have a solution, but I think that there's a lot of problems with the way justice is handed out.
As far as the death penalty itself goes, even apart from the morality of whether it should exist, I think that the logistical issues involved with applying it make it a bad idea anyway. Innoccents being convicted, racial bias, all that sort of thing.
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Allen M.
Death Penalty
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
I'll tell you something, Ian, if my daughter was ever raped, it would take an act of God, a whole police department, plus a lot of other parties knowledgeable about damage control to keep me from cutting his dick off and shoving it down his throat while he still be conscious, and then rip him apart, piece at the time with my ****ing bare hands.
The write the way you do about the subject, Ian, tells me you have absolutely NO clue whatsoever about the mental torture and anguish a raped woman and her family can go through, never mind the physical aftermath. One may think he knows, but until he has been real close to it, like one from his own flesh and blood, it's just smoke and mirrors.
------------------
Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
SHE may not have thought of killing the guy, but if she has any relatives and/or close friends and THEY didn't entertain those thoughts, they're either nuts or have rocks in their heads!!!She wouldn't have even THOUGHT about killing this guy
I'll tell you something, Ian, if my daughter was ever raped, it would take an act of God, a whole police department, plus a lot of other parties knowledgeable about damage control to keep me from cutting his dick off and shoving it down his throat while he still be conscious, and then rip him apart, piece at the time with my ****ing bare hands.
The write the way you do about the subject, Ian, tells me you have absolutely NO clue whatsoever about the mental torture and anguish a raped woman and her family can go through, never mind the physical aftermath. One may think he knows, but until he has been real close to it, like one from his own flesh and blood, it's just smoke and mirrors.
------------------
Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
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Guest
Death Penalty
Allen,I agree 100%,harm my children,family,I'll exact the punishment and it will not be an eye for an eye.Thats to lenient.
Ian:
I had a friend who was murdered for $68.00,she was stabbed,and slashed by the scum in the back of her taxi. Her hands and arms were cut up as she tried to fend of the attack. She failed,her neck was slashed open with a hunting knife. She was relieved of her cash and and dumped on the road in front of the elementary school. The taxi drove over her body just to make sure. Her body was discovered about a 1/2 hour later.
Ironic that she would die 100 yards from the condo that she and her fiancee had purchased a few weeks prior.
I some times realise that I have parked my truck on the exact spot that she bleed to death when I pick up my children at school.
The RCMP got the guy who did it,no remorse. The DNA evidence was indisputable. He got life.Thats 25 years in Canada. He will probably be paroled after 15 years.
There are a great number of people who would probably kill the guy if they knew were he will be when released,but he most likely will be given a new identity.
Do you think I want to pay to feed this guy, how about pay for his masters degree if he decides he wants one?
Some people just deserve death.
Laird
[This message has been edited by uglyelk (edited August 30, 2001).]
Ian:
I had a friend who was murdered for $68.00,she was stabbed,and slashed by the scum in the back of her taxi. Her hands and arms were cut up as she tried to fend of the attack. She failed,her neck was slashed open with a hunting knife. She was relieved of her cash and and dumped on the road in front of the elementary school. The taxi drove over her body just to make sure. Her body was discovered about a 1/2 hour later.
Ironic that she would die 100 yards from the condo that she and her fiancee had purchased a few weeks prior.
I some times realise that I have parked my truck on the exact spot that she bleed to death when I pick up my children at school.
The RCMP got the guy who did it,no remorse. The DNA evidence was indisputable. He got life.Thats 25 years in Canada. He will probably be paroled after 15 years.
There are a great number of people who would probably kill the guy if they knew were he will be when released,but he most likely will be given a new identity.
Do you think I want to pay to feed this guy, how about pay for his masters degree if he decides he wants one?
Some people just deserve death.
Laird
[This message has been edited by uglyelk (edited August 30, 2001).]
Death Penalty
Alan, I'm sorry, but you're wrong. If you want to dig into the files on Van's forums, you can find my experiences with rape victims as an acquaintance, medical student, and, they now need to be updated--doctor. There I got in a lot of trouble for failing to support the conventional wisdom that a woman sexually assaulted is traumatized for life and will never be the same. I argued this tends to worsen the victimization and said the victim would be better off if we offered full empathy and support but didn't expect the victim to be shattered for life. This idea got a lot more support when it was offered by a more famous person later on than when lil ole me suggested it before.
If you were serious about your response to rape, you'd only be doing your family member a disservice, because then you'd rob her of her relative, because you'd be jailed for a long time (heck possibly executed, considering the torture you suggested). This helps no one. Plus, many people don't want their relatives murdering anyone for them or any reason. They don't want to sink to the attackers level, as I mentioned before.
This woman and her friends, including me, were not nuts to fail to desire torturing someone (although i did want this guy fully prosecuted and she wasn't ready for that ordeal). It is not nuts or stupid to show some mercy even to scum. As some of the family of the Oklahoma bombing explained, killing the perp can result in a cycle of violence: we destroy the branch davidians, McVeigh bombs the gov't, we kill McVeigh--what next? Or, man rapes relative, Sensei Moulton tortures man, relatives of man therefore...??? Where does it stop?
Re: the other mentions of torture, punishment, etc: The constitution forbids it; so does the predominant ethical and religious background of the country. Re: cost issues, it's in my first post. Re: giving people another chance to kill, or exiling them, getting rid of them from our society: what do you think super-max accomplishes? They're GONE.
Think about the "hero" in "A time to kill." He shoots down the rapists of his daughters. That sounds likea great thing at first, but, it's just vigilante justice. That's what vengeance as a motivator in punishment is, and if we support it, we advocate anarchy, an overthrow of the rule of law.
Does anyone want to address the 1) cost or 2)christianity / ethics or 3) death penalty as a practice rather than by case-by-case issues mentioned in the first post?
Two last things. First, Allen, while you were accusing me of not having real life experience with rape and suggesting that victims and their acquaintances have a much closer understanding, you dismissed the reaction of a real life rape victim (which was not to desire death or torture for the perp) and her friend (supporting her) as inappropriate!
Second, what benefit is obtained for the victim or family with violent retribution? There's the concern about people getting out of jail, along with a subtle connotation that I don't think these crimes are serious because I'm not always willing to kill those responsible (not a good conclusion). But since we're just talking, what's wrong with talking about keeping the animals locked for life instead?
[This message has been edited by Ian (edited August 31, 2001).]
If you were serious about your response to rape, you'd only be doing your family member a disservice, because then you'd rob her of her relative, because you'd be jailed for a long time (heck possibly executed, considering the torture you suggested). This helps no one. Plus, many people don't want their relatives murdering anyone for them or any reason. They don't want to sink to the attackers level, as I mentioned before.
This woman and her friends, including me, were not nuts to fail to desire torturing someone (although i did want this guy fully prosecuted and she wasn't ready for that ordeal). It is not nuts or stupid to show some mercy even to scum. As some of the family of the Oklahoma bombing explained, killing the perp can result in a cycle of violence: we destroy the branch davidians, McVeigh bombs the gov't, we kill McVeigh--what next? Or, man rapes relative, Sensei Moulton tortures man, relatives of man therefore...??? Where does it stop?
Re: the other mentions of torture, punishment, etc: The constitution forbids it; so does the predominant ethical and religious background of the country. Re: cost issues, it's in my first post. Re: giving people another chance to kill, or exiling them, getting rid of them from our society: what do you think super-max accomplishes? They're GONE.
Think about the "hero" in "A time to kill." He shoots down the rapists of his daughters. That sounds likea great thing at first, but, it's just vigilante justice. That's what vengeance as a motivator in punishment is, and if we support it, we advocate anarchy, an overthrow of the rule of law.
Does anyone want to address the 1) cost or 2)christianity / ethics or 3) death penalty as a practice rather than by case-by-case issues mentioned in the first post?
Two last things. First, Allen, while you were accusing me of not having real life experience with rape and suggesting that victims and their acquaintances have a much closer understanding, you dismissed the reaction of a real life rape victim (which was not to desire death or torture for the perp) and her friend (supporting her) as inappropriate!
Second, what benefit is obtained for the victim or family with violent retribution? There's the concern about people getting out of jail, along with a subtle connotation that I don't think these crimes are serious because I'm not always willing to kill those responsible (not a good conclusion). But since we're just talking, what's wrong with talking about keeping the animals locked for life instead?
[This message has been edited by Ian (edited August 31, 2001).]
Death Penalty
France during it's revolution was executing people at a pretty phenomenal rate. That sounds like a good starting point for figuring out the effects of something like the previous post. They got completely out of control with it, and EVERYone got executed. There are some major differences in the reasons why people were executed then and why we want them toast now, but the basic model is there. Could you control something like that? Are there any serious history buffs that can describe the psychological effect on France? Other than sheer terror? The solution to problems was to kill everyone?
Learn from history or repeat it.
This isn't a post advocating we abandon the death penalty, heck I'm all for "inhumane" torture. But let's figure out what the effects are before we dive in.
Learn from history or repeat it.
This isn't a post advocating we abandon the death penalty, heck I'm all for "inhumane" torture. But let's figure out what the effects are before we dive in.
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Allen M.
Death Penalty
Ian, are you telling me the father of the raped daughter is WRONG for feeling the way I described? How about the girl who will never recover? Maybe the rapist should be convinced that he is worthless and take appropriate action upon himself then?
As an aside, I know what you've previously written.
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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
As an aside, I know what you've previously written.
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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
Death Penalty
Mr. M.,
I Understand where you're coming from. My girlfriend was raped and it killed me. I felt exactly as you described. However, she is not ruined for life. She moved on, she dealt with it and grew from it. "Things that are tough on you make you stronger" she says. I didn't grow from it, and after many years am still hurt by it. She didn't want to press charges (which enraged me, on the surface becasue it's still out there but mostly becuase I wanted it to pay).
Anyway, my point is, she was better served by me at least pretending to be calm, not get myself arrested, and be there for her. She is, I assure, not ruined for life. If anyone were to tell me I was wrong by supporting her and not taking matters into my own hands THEN I would be mad.
Which is a good segue into the idea from my last post. Who are we to decide what happens to a persons life. France couldn't handle it, and just like any vigilante, violence won, not justice.
I Understand where you're coming from. My girlfriend was raped and it killed me. I felt exactly as you described. However, she is not ruined for life. She moved on, she dealt with it and grew from it. "Things that are tough on you make you stronger" she says. I didn't grow from it, and after many years am still hurt by it. She didn't want to press charges (which enraged me, on the surface becasue it's still out there but mostly becuase I wanted it to pay).
Anyway, my point is, she was better served by me at least pretending to be calm, not get myself arrested, and be there for her. She is, I assure, not ruined for life. If anyone were to tell me I was wrong by supporting her and not taking matters into my own hands THEN I would be mad.
Which is a good segue into the idea from my last post. Who are we to decide what happens to a persons life. France couldn't handle it, and just like any vigilante, violence won, not justice.
Death Penalty
This is a very tough issue...
As everyone knows, I'm a big advocate of "instant kharma", where the perp gets exactly what they deserve at the hands of their intended victim. I also have first-hand experience with victims and the urge to "make it right" is very powerful indeed. Then there are the cases, such as the recent capture of one of the excaped convicts in Texas, where the convict was guilty of cold-blooded murder, his crime was caught on the store video, he openly admitted (even bragged at one point) about his crime and when the jury was given the choice between life with parole in 25 years or death, the convict asked them for death. It took them less than two hours to decide to grant his wish. More power to 'em.
HOWEVER... Here is some food for thought (and seems to me to be one of the best reasons against the death penalty):
http://www.telegram.com/news/inside/okexecute1.html
<blockquote>A man executed in Oklahoma last year was placed at the murder scene by the testimony of now-disgraced police chemist Joyce Gilchrist, but a police department memo obtained by The Associated Press says some of the scientific evidence she swore to does not exist.
The July 31 memo by a fellow lab scientist for the Oklahoma City Police Department refers to the case of Malcolm Rent Johnson, who was executed on Jan. 6, 2000, after being convicted in 1982 of rape and murder.
...
Two appellate courts have ruled Gilchrist gave false testimony about semen evidence in the 1992 rape and murder trial of Alfred Brian Mitchell, whose death sentence was overturned earlier this month because of what one court called her “untrue” testimony.
“There are now two cases where the results stated in the (lab) report and testified to by Joyce Gilchrist contradict independent expert re-examination of the actual physical evidence,” Schile wrote.</blockquote>
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Allen M.
Death Penalty
I hear you, TSDguy. The woman of whom I'm thinking does not know she is messed up, but it has changed her values on life, her opinion on men and her opinion of herself. She once attempted suicide by slashing her wrists and was found in the street bleeding to death, barely into her teens.
She was once a young vibrant little girl who was abused by the time she was 13 by her stepfather. She now is, for all practical purposes, emotionally brain dead. There is no joy in her life, she is now an adult in her twenties with a child, and is always looking to get what she can out of people.
Some move forward with their lives afterwards, but for others the trauma is too much to handle.
Definitely the perp deserves at least the death penalty.
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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
She was once a young vibrant little girl who was abused by the time she was 13 by her stepfather. She now is, for all practical purposes, emotionally brain dead. There is no joy in her life, she is now an adult in her twenties with a child, and is always looking to get what she can out of people.
Some move forward with their lives afterwards, but for others the trauma is too much to handle.
Definitely the perp deserves at least the death penalty.
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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
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Death Penalty
Hello Ian. Once again you are bringing out the best of the forum.
Earlier you stated that the US Constitution prohibits torture. Not so. The eighth amendment reads as follows:
"Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted."
The phrase 'cruel and unusual' is meant to say just that, not 'cruel or unusual'. An act must be both or it is not prohibited. Hence, while the death penalty may be cruel, it is not unusual, and therefore quite allowable. Likewise, if our society decided to torture criminals in some dastardly way, since torture is not any more unusual than the electric chair, it is not unconstitutional. I do agree that the ethical and religious background of this country would make torture unlikely.
Did I interperet you reference properly or did I miss the word 'torture' somewhere in the US Constitution?
Regards, Rich
Earlier you stated that the US Constitution prohibits torture. Not so. The eighth amendment reads as follows:
"Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted."
The phrase 'cruel and unusual' is meant to say just that, not 'cruel or unusual'. An act must be both or it is not prohibited. Hence, while the death penalty may be cruel, it is not unusual, and therefore quite allowable. Likewise, if our society decided to torture criminals in some dastardly way, since torture is not any more unusual than the electric chair, it is not unconstitutional. I do agree that the ethical and religious background of this country would make torture unlikely.
Did I interperet you reference properly or did I miss the word 'torture' somewhere in the US Constitution?
Regards, Rich
