Tough issue time...

Panther · Post by **Panther** » Wed Sep 26, 2001 7:23 pm

In light of the recent events... and fully expecting the usual gamut of responses... Here's a scenerio and the tough issue question of the week...

You are confronted with a terrorist that has grabbed a hostage, (chose your favorite loved one). The goal of the terrorist is to poison the water supply. You are the one who can gain the terrorist access to the water supply and if you refuse, loved one dies.

What do you do?

WAIT! Before you answer, think about it. It is easy for everyone to discuss how they would "save the day", but think about a few things. 1) Can you really sacrifice someone that you love so dearly for thousands, perhaps millions who you don't know and many of whom wouldn't think twice about your sacrifice? 2) Do you really think that your extra-long black-belt (tm) will help you to save your loved one? 3) Ever wish you carried a gun and were proficient?

let the posts begin...

Yosselle · Post by **Yosselle** » Wed Sep 26, 2001 8:10 pm

Panther,

Generally speaking, if I felt that the perp's threats against my loved one were credible, I would try to make him believe that I would kill my loved one without a second thought if such were necessary to kill him. I would offer him the alternative of letting my loved one go in exchange for sparing his life and merely turning him in to the proper authorities. The terrorist's goal of poisoning the water supply is irrelevant.

Yosselle

[This message has been edited by Yosselle (edited September 26, 2001).]

Alan K · Post by **Alan K** » Thu Sep 27, 2001 4:22 pm

Well Panther:

You have placed us on the horns of a dilemma, with this tough issue!

Few of us could give a truthful answer unless actually confronted with a specificset of circumstances. A the victim of the terrorist who wa so confronted could reason that there might be some way out and not act until there was no hope.

The altruistic decision would be that we will all die anyway and let us save our fellow man.

Looking at pictures of our latest tragic holocaust sent to me by e mail, I saw close ups of people standing the window cubicles of the window which resembled a vertically placed ice cube tray. The smoke was rising, and people were jumping. One frame was that of a young woman holding an infant and standing on the ledge from which she would have to leap or be consumed by fire and the uprising deadly smoke. This scene was of the building section of the tower above the impact area and there was no hope of retreating down stair-wells or fire truck ladders.

The issue in that case is it better to die by fire or smoke inhalation, and jump and perhaps be a burial worthy corpse.

Your situation was somewhat like that of the woman standing on the window ledge holding the infant. She knew that they both would die anyway, but was waiting for the courage to jump.

We can sit here now and boast of heroic deeds, but can we truly examine our souls and guaranty what we would actually do?

Good provoking post.

Alan K

LeeDarrow · Post by **LeeDarrow** » Thu Sep 27, 2001 6:38 pm

Panther-sama,

I always thought the movie Billy Jack had the best response to this scenario.

"Go ahead. You kill her, then I kill you."

I'd add:

"I won't like it if you do and I gurantee that I will do everything in my power to make sure that you take a long time to go and that it will hurt a lot - not just for me, but for her. Regardless, your mission will fail and you will be dead - and disgraced."

This has GOT to be delivered with the cold clarity and matter-of-fact steadiness that Tom Laughlin did as Billy Jack or it won't work.

If the terr knows he is facing someone just as hard-a$$ed in his beliefs and just as willing to meet his maker AND who is completely committed to disgracing him by screwing up his mission, you may, and I say MAY rattle some of his reserve.

It's a worst case scenario, postulating no back-up being on the way. Someone is probably going to die. Probably the hostage, maybe you, maybe all three of you.

But, given the situation, the good of the many outweighs the good of the few - or the one.

Respectfully,

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.

Yosselle · Post by **Yosselle** » Fri Sep 28, 2001 2:35 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by LeeDarrow:
Respectfully,
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What does C.Ht. stand for?

Yosselle

student · Post by **student** » Sun Sep 30, 2001 12:20 am

Yosselle:

Lee is a Clinical Hypnotist, as well as a stage magician, San-Dan in Shorin-Ryu, and someone I've known way too long....

student

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Sun Sep 30, 2001 5:03 am

Really a tough question.

When you think of the scenario happening on a plane of passengers bent on a suicide mission, we might fantasize that if we hold a gun, while knowing we are about to die anyway with many more on the ground, we might have what it takes to pull the trigger on a loved one just to get at the terrorist and maybe prevent him or his cohorts to finish the job on the ground even as we die.

I would not bet on it.
Maybe for some of us, just maybe. But what most martial artists [especially] and the average person have trouble understanding is the truth as spoken by this quote from Tony Blauer:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

the weapon in all conflict is secondary to the suddenness and violence of action.

It is the suddenness and violence of conflict that will numb your brain and body into the freeze, with your techniques and resolve flying out the window.

And you will have the “go” command from your primal instincts to put a bullet in your child’s brain as a terrorist is holding him?

LOL ~

------------------
Van Canna

Yosselle · Post by **Yosselle** » Sun Sep 30, 2001 3:46 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Originally posted by student: Lee is a Clinical Hypnotist

Now, that's pretty cool!!

Yosselle

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Sun Sep 30, 2001 3:49 pm

Lee,

You should join us at summer camp, put some of us under and convince that we are invincible warriors.

------------------
Van Canna

student · Post by **student** » Sun Sep 30, 2001 4:08 pm

Van:

From what I gather on the threads, being convinced one is an invincible warrior is not the solution; it is part of the problem.

And putting people to sleep with your voice is no biggie. I have done it frequently in Opening Statement and Closing Argument....

Sigh.
More training....

student

[This message has been edited by student (edited September 30, 2001).]

Yosselle · Post by **Yosselle** » Sun Sep 30, 2001 4:14 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Van Canna: I would not bet on it. Maybe for some of us, just maybe. But what most martial artists [especially] and the average person have trouble understanding is the truth as spoken by this quote from Tony Blauer: the weapon in all conflict is secondary to the suddenness and violence of action.

It is the suddenness and violence of conflict that will numb your brain and body into the freeze, with your techniques and resolve flying out the window.

And you will have the “go” command from your primal instincts to put a bullet in your child’s brain as a terrorist is holding him?

LOL ~<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Excellent quote by Blauer (and appropriate incredulity on your part, Van). So, is the question then, How should/can one train to develop ice water in one's veins?. A related question might be: Is it possible to _will_ oneself to be cold blooded on demand, much like one can train to will an adrenalin surge?. Or is cold-bloodedness like basic fitness... once you have it, you can't just turn it off overnight. Or worse yet, is it like scar tissue - ie. permanent?

Yosselle

Sochin · Post by **Sochin** » Sun Sep 30, 2001 11:18 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>"I would try to make him believe that I would kill my loved one without a second thought if such were necessary to kill him."

and:

"Go ahead. You kill her, then I kill you."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Both of these need a bit of modification to touch what I think/hope I would/should/might do...

The water supply is a non-issue unless he knows he can get to it by killing me. The issue is to keep my loved one alive which I will do my best to do by convincing him that if he/she dies, his death is inevitable. I will lie about people I have killed before as a soldier/cop/whatever. I will stormdance and slaver at the mouth. I will woof a woof that he has never considered in his wildest nightmares and I will convince him that if my loved one dies, his mission is ended forever with his most gruesome murder.

His only hope is to let her/him go and to try another day when I am not on duty.

If my loved one is old enough, then we will have practiced this scenario many times already to forestall home invaders, kidnappers and car jackers who want a hostage. The hostage will know how to go limp in a faint or to take advantage of a pause by Bad Guy to open it up for me to enter.

Source: Strong on Defense by Sanford Strong. I believe the answer is in this direction.

------------------
The Fighting Old Man

student · Post by **student** » Mon Oct 01, 2001 6:02 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by LeeDarrow:

For me, the big problem is getting my wife to DO the practice scenarios! SHE doesn't see that something like this will EVER happen to her, so why bother? Says I'M being paranoid.

My argument is that one still does not stand under a tall tree in a field during a lightning storm, does one?

Didn't work.

Any suggestions?

Respectfully,

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, as you should know, Lee, for a suggestion to work you should first get her in a relaxed state: light, airy, floating, wonderful, deep...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

student

Panther · Post by **Panther** » Mon Oct 01, 2001 7:02 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by LeeDarrow:

For me, the big problem is getting my wife to DO the practice scenarios! SHE doesn't see that something like this will EVER happen to her, so why bother? Says I'M being paranoid.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Been there, been called that...

Then there was the time when a situation occured that was unavoidable. I took care of it, for better or worse, and the tune changed... for awhile... then the denial set in.

Denial of how things went down (maybe I didn't really need to confront those down-trodden asking for our possessions with a knife and some other nasty things

), denial of how bad things got (my injuries weren't all that bad, I just wanted some attention, to use my training, and to be a "hero"

), denial of whether things were unavoidable or not (if only we hadn't gone out that night, don't cha know...

) Oh well...

Not a problem anymore. I'm single now...

LeeDarrow · Post by **LeeDarrow** » Tue Oct 02, 2001 5:16 am

Yosselle-sama,

C.Ht. stands for Certified Hypnotherapist, a professional certification granted by the National Guild of Hypnotists upon completion of training in excess of 300 hours, an exam and supervised work. It is maintained by keeping a minimum of 15 Continuing Education Units (CEU's) each year and/or the publication of papers or articles to the Guild's Journal or other, accredited professional journals.

Now, at the count of five, you will wake from your relaxed state, feeling refreshed and wonderful... one ... two...

Respectfully,

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Yosselle:
What does C.Ht. stand for?

Yosselle

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>