Grrring - growling, menacing sounds that aren't yells. There are times when many people come out with sounds like this. Some folks sound like Monica Seles when they throw a punch. Others never make a sound.
So - what happens in your training circle? Do you make noise? Do you encourage it? Does it but bother you, is it "proper training"?
Dana
grunting, growling, huffing, yelling
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my teakwondo master asks us to do it--part of the breathing techique
its more like blowing- woooh woooh( the wind sound) breath in breath out
throw a punch make a sound etc
cant remember the details- more than 10 yer ago since my last lesson.
its more like blowing- woooh woooh( the wind sound) breath in breath out
throw a punch make a sound etc
cant remember the details- more than 10 yer ago since my last lesson.
Last edited by suede on Sun Jan 05, 2003 2:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Jackie Olsen
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maxwell ainley
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Hi All,
I would say jacky as the uechi atmosphere ,remember uechi was taught hands on in a pretty quiet way ,there are reasons for this ,obviously they overspill into the combat zone later.
Obviously we are noisy for quite a while in our practice ,also it can be further encouraged by different instructors ,again if in conflict it may suit our emotional combat level ,to let of steam in the noiser way .
What's sanchin teaching on these matters to me,the aim may be quiet but doing it is a different matter ,cool calm and collected is a teaching objective that foster's uninterupted spontaenious self defence reaction ,springing from sanchin ,that again fosters instinctive quiet motion .
I would say jacky as the uechi atmosphere ,remember uechi was taught hands on in a pretty quiet way ,there are reasons for this ,obviously they overspill into the combat zone later.
Obviously we are noisy for quite a while in our practice ,also it can be further encouraged by different instructors ,again if in conflict it may suit our emotional combat level ,to let of steam in the noiser way .
What's sanchin teaching on these matters to me,the aim may be quiet but doing it is a different matter ,cool calm and collected is a teaching objective that foster's uninterupted spontaenious self defence reaction ,springing from sanchin ,that again fosters instinctive quiet motion .
max ainley
sounds of silence
That is a very good topic thanks for bringing it up.
Why should'nt we be allowed to make gutteral sounds as we train. Many years ago when I first started in Uechi I was told that Uechi people don't kiai in kata. This confused me when I started going to open tournaments and saw all of the other styles kiaiing in kata and sparring. Some a little extreme I must add.
Breathing at the end of the strike, expelling air as we muster power into our strikes should be natural. Holding ones breath and thinking shhhh I shouldn't make any noise when I train only inhibits the spirit and the inner drive behind developing a powerful strike.
I have been to dojos that kiai and and even have a droning hum as they work drills in unison. I never felt so much spirit as when I experienced this in a class.
So you ask and very wisely I might add.
So - what happens in your training circle? Do you make noise?
I do, some others do but not all. Don't know why not.
Do you encourage it?
Yes I tell newer students to get into and intouch with the spirit behind their training. If they feel like grunting or groaning or hissing or whatever do it. Don't hold back.
Does it but bother you, is it "proper training"?
No it does not bother me, it may bother people who have been brought along thinking they have to be quiet in the dojo when they train. Who is to say what proper training is as long as you "train hard but train smart"
RL
Why should'nt we be allowed to make gutteral sounds as we train. Many years ago when I first started in Uechi I was told that Uechi people don't kiai in kata. This confused me when I started going to open tournaments and saw all of the other styles kiaiing in kata and sparring. Some a little extreme I must add.
Breathing at the end of the strike, expelling air as we muster power into our strikes should be natural. Holding ones breath and thinking shhhh I shouldn't make any noise when I train only inhibits the spirit and the inner drive behind developing a powerful strike.
I have been to dojos that kiai and and even have a droning hum as they work drills in unison. I never felt so much spirit as when I experienced this in a class.
So you ask and very wisely I might add.
So - what happens in your training circle? Do you make noise?
I do, some others do but not all. Don't know why not.
Do you encourage it?
Yes I tell newer students to get into and intouch with the spirit behind their training. If they feel like grunting or groaning or hissing or whatever do it. Don't hold back.
Does it but bother you, is it "proper training"?
No it does not bother me, it may bother people who have been brought along thinking they have to be quiet in the dojo when they train. Who is to say what proper training is as long as you "train hard but train smart"
RL
Grunting, growling, etc.
As far as what sound/noises, or whatever is proper or appropriate is up to the individual as long as it doesn't interfere with another's learning or training unless intended for a reason such as distraction in sparring.
It seems only natural to make sound with a powerful release of energy. When you weight lift, it is natural to make explosive sound often at the height of the exercise or the most intense part....why not with other sport forms.
It is equivalent to a lion's roar before an attack, a rebel yell (southern battle cry) before an attack in battle.
The sounds serve different purposes. A kiai instills fear or intimidation before an attack to the foe and psyches the individual up for the battle, right? Maybe some people are so confident, they don't need to be psyched up.
We are in a dojo that makes very little sound such as the traditional kiai during out katas but you will hear sounds from the students and instructors at times when conditioning or pushing themselves to extremes in the dojo.
I find it hard not to kiai at certain points in a kata, it just seems natural and instinctive.
I do believe each kata can be practiced in many different ways and the use of outward expressions are reflection of the mood of the kata as a response. For instance, if I am particularly working on smooth transitions, fluid and flowing moves (I especially see this in Seichin kata), my moves are with more stealth and my sounds are moreof hisses and quieter expressions of sound and energy.
Seisan tends to be more powerful and explosive, naturally suggesting strong kiais and more forceful expressions of energy.
Many things to think about.
Bottom line: to each his own.
Vicki
It seems only natural to make sound with a powerful release of energy. When you weight lift, it is natural to make explosive sound often at the height of the exercise or the most intense part....why not with other sport forms.
It is equivalent to a lion's roar before an attack, a rebel yell (southern battle cry) before an attack in battle.
The sounds serve different purposes. A kiai instills fear or intimidation before an attack to the foe and psyches the individual up for the battle, right? Maybe some people are so confident, they don't need to be psyched up.
We are in a dojo that makes very little sound such as the traditional kiai during out katas but you will hear sounds from the students and instructors at times when conditioning or pushing themselves to extremes in the dojo.
I find it hard not to kiai at certain points in a kata, it just seems natural and instinctive.
I do believe each kata can be practiced in many different ways and the use of outward expressions are reflection of the mood of the kata as a response. For instance, if I am particularly working on smooth transitions, fluid and flowing moves (I especially see this in Seichin kata), my moves are with more stealth and my sounds are moreof hisses and quieter expressions of sound and energy.
Seisan tends to be more powerful and explosive, naturally suggesting strong kiais and more forceful expressions of energy.
Many things to think about.
Bottom line: to each his own.
Vicki
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Tony-San
word.Bottom line: to each his own.
I kiai all the time. I don't care what people say.
You can modulate your kiai with your inent like an AM or FM signal (kiai coincides with intenet), or you can use your kiai to carry your inent (kiai lags intent) like the tail feathers on an arrow, or even an ICBM.
You do not have to kiai at all.... just depends on what you feel is right. Just ignore everyone else.
Also, if you don't feel kiai, don't do it because everyone else is... theres nothing worse then a fake kiai. If you feel it, you should do it because if you don't, you won't get off on what your doing, and that's real important..
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Jackie Olsen
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Remember Joshua and the Battle of Jericho?It is equivalent to a lion's roar before an attack, a rebel yell (southern battle cry) before an attack in battle.
How do you think those old walls came a-tumblin' down ... with the old spirit yell!I agree with everyone. To kiai or or not to kiai is the question for each individual depending on the situation. To get locked into one way defeats the purpose of going with the flow of energy.
I would not use it for instance, during kumite at a Uechi dan test, for instance. But, when sparring at the dojo, I just might depending on what's happening. And for sure, out on the streets if I wanted a moment's distraction.
when do you kiai
quote
{I would not use it for instance, during kumite at a Uechi dan test, for instance. But, when sparring at the dojo, I just might depending on what's happening. And for sure, out on the streets if I wanted a moment's distraction.}
All wonderful answers shows that we have people that can think for themselves. Now my question,
Above it was stated that a kiai might possibly be used as a "moment's distraction". So does that mean that you will kiai to announce your attack hoping to startle your opponent or will you kiai when striking looking to add power to your strike? Or both?
When does one kiai?
{I would not use it for instance, during kumite at a Uechi dan test, for instance. But, when sparring at the dojo, I just might depending on what's happening. And for sure, out on the streets if I wanted a moment's distraction.}
All wonderful answers shows that we have people that can think for themselves. Now my question,
Above it was stated that a kiai might possibly be used as a "moment's distraction". So does that mean that you will kiai to announce your attack hoping to startle your opponent or will you kiai when striking looking to add power to your strike? Or both?
When does one kiai?
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jorvik
A "spirit shout" can be used for a number of things.....in my son's Jiu Jitsu class the kids used to shout " don't bully me!!",,,,when they did a move...I suppose a natural development in our politically correct society. 
It can be used for all sorts of things....get a nice finger lock on somebody then scream at the top of your lungs " Get on the floor Mr.!!!!" ...if you don't say this they will just stand and scream, but it is amazing how quickly they will comply, when given pain ......and an order.
You can also throw someone with a shout if you overbalance them.
I used to scream with the best of them!!....for a beginner it is essential....it's the only way you can establish your MA identity ..........and say " Yes!!,,,,I am a force to be reckoned with. When you can do that then you know that you are making progress.......then, well I guess, you don't need it as much
It can be used for all sorts of things....get a nice finger lock on somebody then scream at the top of your lungs " Get on the floor Mr.!!!!" ...if you don't say this they will just stand and scream, but it is amazing how quickly they will comply, when given pain ......and an order.
You can also throw someone with a shout if you overbalance them.
I used to scream with the best of them!!....for a beginner it is essential....it's the only way you can establish your MA identity ..........and say " Yes!!,,,,I am a force to be reckoned with. When you can do that then you know that you are making progress.......then, well I guess, you don't need it as much
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Dana Sheets
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Are all sounds useful sounds?
Amen to that. And there is a fine line between having good spirit and trying to make a show of good spirit.Tony-San wrote:... theres nothing worse then a fake kiai...
Karate-jitsu vs karate-show vs karate do
Making a noise in cadence with punching seems to me to be more of a breathing exercise than a show of spirit. Yelling and grring and grunting and growling are expected parts of things a demonstration team does or a competitor does.
Brief story - I competed in a tournament last year and during the women's championship sparring match my competitor lined up across from me and started growling like a mean doberman. I got hit with her first backfist because I was simply so entertained at the thought that I was being growled at that I was working too hard to not smile.
But a dojo is not a competition or a public demonstration...or is it? I have seen that when senior students start making lots of noise, junior students follow. Then the tenor of a training session starts to change - people get more aggressive, and often times more careless. More injuries seem to happen when there is more noise in the dojo. Anybody else notice this trend?
I have and train my kiai. When I kiai at children they often sit down in place. When I kiai at adults they often freeze. So I am comfortable with and use that kind of a sound in training because it is effective.
Grunting during striking makes sense. You're working hard, you're letting air out, you're being physical.
But what about growling? Are you a growler? Been growled at? This isn't a sound you make when attacking. This is a sound you make to warn the other person/thing that if they move then it's going to be a dance.
Is that kind of intent/sound appropriate for a dojo? If so, when or when not?
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Tony-San
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maxwell ainley
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Jackie Olsen
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It truly isn't something I'll plan or think about. When I "feel" it in my gut, my hara, that I should use it, I will. Again, it is sparingly -- when & how at the spur of the moment.Above it was stated that a kiai might possibly be used as a "moment's distraction". So does that mean that you will kiai to announce your attack hoping to startle your opponent or will you kiai when striking looking to add power to your strike? Or both? When does one kiai?
No, can't say I've been growled or grr'd at. However, there is one Senoir/Senior who does the "whoop, whoop" sounds that Bruce Lee used to make. Took me awhile to learn to ignore him.
No apology needed from this end, Max... I don't think Uechi "formally" uses the kiai ... however I've seen some Okikukai or Kenyaki groups do it (not sure if the names are correct). My Sensei doesn't teach it, though we do have some classes to help the beginners not get locked into a certain mode. It seems harder to get someone to actually do a proper kiai than to stay silent.
Jackie
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maxwell ainley
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Jackie,
Thanks for info.I do know something about the KIAI I co ran a wado -ryu dojo with another sensei before doing uechi ,the use of the kiai was distributed throughout the kata pool and within the kihon aspect and obviously the kumite too .
The kiai was used as a distraction or to add extra intent to the technique ,now years ago I did a experment with this ,with a 16 1b hammer and a steel pin at work into pretty hard ground ,also I am highly skilled with hamers's of various weights in my craft ,right I hit the steel pin with all I had just quiet like ,then I hit it with a kiai ,measuring both depths ,nothing in it .
Thanks for info.I do know something about the KIAI I co ran a wado -ryu dojo with another sensei before doing uechi ,the use of the kiai was distributed throughout the kata pool and within the kihon aspect and obviously the kumite too .
The kiai was used as a distraction or to add extra intent to the technique ,now years ago I did a experment with this ,with a 16 1b hammer and a steel pin at work into pretty hard ground ,also I am highly skilled with hamers's of various weights in my craft ,right I hit the steel pin with all I had just quiet like ,then I hit it with a kiai ,measuring both depths ,nothing in it .
max ainley
