Thanks, David. Now I at least know where you are coming from.
David wrote:
The tonfa is square...
Actually... no. Not all tonfa are square. Like the PR24, they come in all sizes and shapes.
Here's a picture of a traditional round tonfa that I snagged from online.
I do however prefer my flat ones. But you can make either work if you know how to use the weapon.
David wrote:
...and would stay on your forearm as the rounded pr24 would/has/will slip off.
Part of the problem lies in a misconception about how to use it in the manner you are thinking. I'd like to quote a traditional kobudo book by Motokatsu Inoue. It's mostly in Japanese, but there are a few parts of the book translated into English. The following is a poorly translated Precept #1 for Okinawan kobudo. This is line number 1 in every single kobudo manual by Inoue.
Dodge the opponent not by power, but by your body, and place yourself in the best position.
Virtually every single Okinawan, Japanese, and Phillipine weapon has the "blocking" motion you are thinking of when you fret about the thing slipping off your forearm. But when you consider that I can - and do - pull the same move off with a reverse grip of a knife, what does that tell you about what you can do with a PR24?
You aren't supposed to stand still and let someone whack you. That's what precept #1 says in no uncertain terms. Do that with a katana and you just broke your favorite blade that you probably spent a life's savings for. Do that with an escrima stick and expect to get seriously hurt. Same for any other weapon.
It's all about gaining an advantage. You follow the lines of force and use the weapon to help feel your way past and through that line of force. Only when you really f*** up do you have that half-baked "take it" technique to fall back on. But "taking it" with any situation that may involve a weapon is ill-advised at best. You train to take it and move on just in case you have to - not because you want to.
David wrote:
The problem is the enrgery doesn't go into the target because of the recoil. No fluid shock. When you swing the PR24 by the short portion it will recoil/bounce off the target. I demonstrate this for academy classes all the time. No matter how tightly you hold it, it will still bounce off and only some of the energy goes into the target. On top of the bounce off the tool itself is hollow, even with a wooden dowel it is not solid. Therefore when energy seeks the path of least resistance more of it is lost and you are getting surface bruising at best.
Uh huh...
David wrote:
This is a touchy subject but it is the most well kown example I can think of. Rodeny king was beaten with PR24's. If he had been hit in the head with a solid stick I don't think he would have been giving interviews the next day.
Yep. I totally know where you are coming from.
Roy Bedard at camp kindly donated one of his rapid rotating batons for me to evaluate and play with. Like the PR24, his RRB device is styled after an Okinawan weapon - the sai. Roy knew I practiced and taught Tsukenshitahaku no sai, and wanted my input.
I have this most wonderful pair of sai, David, made from stainless steel. They are perfectly balanced, and substantial. I can crack a coconut with those things no problem with a proper flicking motion.
Anyhow, I picked Roy's weapon up, and immediately knew I was dealing with something different. It LOOKED like a sai, but didn't have the mass or material composition for it to be used as a fluid shock striking weapon. I immediately related that to Roy, and he agreed 100%. Then just like you, he invoked the Rodney King incident. But he did so to make his point about what these weapons are and are not designed to do.
The RRB and the PR24 are INTENTIONALLY designed NOT to do the kind of damage a heavy traditional "night stick" can do. If you are cracking someone's skull with a baton, what the hell are you doing, anyhow? A LEO walks into a scene with a fairly complete force continuum. It starts with presence, escalates to VSD, then maybe to physical force, pepper spray, or one of these devices, and finally can escalate to drawing a firearm. If someone is creating a life-threatening situation, chances are the PR24 should be holstered and the firearm should be drawn and aimed.
The RRB and the PR24 won't do squat with the emotionally hijacked LEO flailing with gross motor movement. It was designed that way; it neuters the Neanderthal Nazi cop. The last thing municipalities need is excitable officers cracking skulls and breaking collar bones with these things. This gets them into deep doo doo with the press and the sheister lawyers. The way things are, if you want to do that much damage you should draw your firearm and shoot the bastard. The law, precident, and protocol protects you.
Back to the conversation with Roy and I... The bottom line is you need a complete paradigm shift to use one of these tools. I do not know what they teach LEOs with respect to using these things. For all I know, they teach you some pretty stupid stuff considering what you're capable of doing under stress. However if you look at Hamahiga no tonfa with a knowledgeable eye, you will see there's plenty of stuff you CAN do if you understand human anatomy and kata interpretation.
Yes, you don't get fluid shock with a striking PR24, or a tonfa for that matter. But you will get follow-through power and flow in much the same way you'd get if you were using either Phillipine sticks or a simple set of nunchakus.
But the real good stuff is in the gross motor poking and thrusting techniques. It's right in both the Uechi kata and in Hamahiga no tonfa. I've often called the Uechi nukite a "metaphor." When you get a tonfa or a PR24 in your hand and start thinking Uechi nukites, suddenly they make sense. There are many places on the body you can poke with this weapon that will make it like pushing buttons on a cash register. If your goal is to get control and cuff them, this is a nice tool to have in one hand. I often shock very large people when I show them what I can do to them when they come charging at me. I try to be gentle but...
I hope you can make it to Winterfest. If Roy and I both are there, we can show you some cool stuff. Maybe a paradigm shift will change your mind about the utility of these weapons.
- Bill
and shows how this tool has considerable striking impact on a heavy bag which would seem to eliminate your objection on the weapon rebounding.
Since you had these references at hand, has there been discussion in the woman's forum on these weapons in relationship to women police officers?
