please tell me about shotokan

[Bill Glasheen]

This too me seems to have lost the feel of the kata. I like how they unwound the kata from the side to side, but their lower body doesn't seem to match anything in the kata.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4uxSFh6 ... re=related

Holy crap; I agree! That's just god-awful. These people are leg technique illiterate.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Now this guy is much better as his lower body is doing what makes sense for the kata. Wish it was longer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOJMXHmV ... re=related

This isn't much better. There's a major brain fart with the lifting/sweeping leg motion. In other words, where is it?

Go back to this video. You can see the move at frame 0:43. It's done in slow motion from 0:45 to 0:49.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-pkxqTu ... r_embedded

See what I mean? Without the leg movements, the bunkai is emasculated.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

I found this interesting. This guy's kata was absolutely breathtaking. But the choreography in the bunkai? Not very inspiring - even though he executes it well.

http://v.ku6.com/show/9Ig6dg2koCEdCsYx.html

It's not all bad. But this person is a bit illiterate on the grappling and inside fighting.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Mike

This is more like it. These are the kinds of bunkai I endorse.

Martial Arts Explorer - Volume 1 Program 11

(Click on video size = large in upper portion of viewing screen.)

This video goes bad at 7:40. But the important stuff is all there in the high quality 7+ minutes.

• These are natural, self-defense applications rather than incestuous, karate 101 attacks to karate 101 lunge punches.
• Note how the guy works with the principles, and stays away from single, super-literate interpretations. The same sequence can be made to work from different sides as well as inside vs. outside. The instructor (very good if I might say), shows many ways to execute the same idea - depending on your preference or the specific way the execution happens to manifest itself.
• The goal is always a lights-out finishing technique. This is similar to many of my own Uechi Seisan applications that Okinawa never taught us. Many of my bunkai are variations on the theme of getting to and attacking the cervical spine. Same here. None of this partner dropping because you hit them with a backfist to the nose BS.
• Note how arm AND leg movements are employed. It's all there.
• As is often the case, the students trying the application don't quite understand the concept of avoiding the fine-motor way of applying what is essentially a kote gaeshi, although from a different angle. It take time... But the instructor gets it.
• Note the leg attacks. Good stuff!
• Note how the perceived kata interpretation changes drastically if you happen to get the person on their knees in a sequence.

- Bill

[Bruise Lee]

My Sensei keeps stressing the importance of ankle, knee and hip flexibility as well as an understanding of core (tan dien) and kime (focus and release and charging of focus, energy, power, tension and lack of tension, which is allrelated to the breath!!!)

There is a school of thought - shared by my Goju teacher - that says you should learn techniques big and deep, and then let them get smaller and shallow with practical application. Why? Because under stress everything gets smaller anyway, and the stances are likely to become more shallow. Additionally, concepts like the use of the core are difficult to teach in Sanchin, but much easier to teach in the styles like Shotokan. Nakamatsu is a Uechi practitioner in Okinawa who is big on teaching the use of the core in Sanchin. He starts out very, very big until you get it. Then you're supposed to make it smaller and smaller until it looks like nothing more than a body shiver.

- Bill

A Pa Kua instructor also taught all techniques that way and I thought it was effective

[Bruise Lee]

Mike

This is more like it. These are the kinds of bunkai I endorse.

Martial Arts Explorer - Volume 1 Program 11

(Click on video size = large in upper portion of viewing screen.)

This video goes bad at 7:40. But the important stuff is all there in the high quality 7+ minutes.

• These are natural, self-defense applications rather than incestuous, karate 101 attacks to karate 101 lunge punches.
• Note how the guy works with the principles, and stays away from single, super-literate interpretations. The same sequence can be made to work from different sides as well as inside vs. outside. The instructor (very good if I might say), shows many ways to execute the same idea - depending on your preference or the specific way the execution happens to manifest itself.
• The goal is always a lights-out finishing technique. This is similar to many of my own Uechi Seisan applications that Okinawa never taught us. Many of my bunkai are variations on the theme of getting to and attacking the cervical spine. Same here. None of this partner dropping because you hit them with a backfist to the nose BS.
• Note how arm AND leg movements are employed. It's all there.
• As is often the case, the students trying the application don't quite understand the concept of avoiding the fine-motor way of applying what is essentially a kote gaeshi, although from a different angle. It take time... But the instructor gets it.
• Note the leg attacks. Good stuff!
• Note how the perceived kata interpretation changes drastically if you happen to get the person on their knees in a sequence.

- Bill

THats similar to an interpretation I learned for the opening move of a USA Goju kata called something like Gesaku Sho, if I remember correctly from 30 years ago

[Bill Glasheen]

THats similar to an interpretation I learned for the opening move of a USA Goju kata called something like Gesaku Sho, if I remember correctly from 30 years ago

There are myriad Gekisai bunkai out there. Gekisai is one of the "instructional" (as opposed to classical) forms of Goju Ryu, I believe choreographed by Miyagi Chojun.

The Geikisai bunkai are either in a piecemeal format (like Uechi's Seisan bunkai), or done as a continuous beginning-to-end partner exercise (as I learned in Shorei Kai Goju Ryu).

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

More bunkai (interpretations) of Naihanchi/Tekki from Martial Arts Explorer.

This time Michael is using the shorthand method of form interpretation. Shorthand interpretations occur when the moves of a classical form imply moves that are not shown.

Martial Arts Explorer - Volume 1 Program 8

Golly, Mike, these guys are getting dangerously free with their interpretations.

A very good example of "shorthand interpretation" would be a "cobra strike" from the front elbow posture (with hiraken hand) in Seisan.



- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

So why do the kata in the first place? Why not just practice the techniques?

Go back and look at Michael working with his students.

Martial Arts Explorer - Volume 1 Program 8

What do you see? Same thing I saw when I did "aikido hour" once a week with my UVa Uechi class. After some ukemi, I would demonstrate an aikido technique to the class. Then I'd have them run off with their partners and try it out themselves. I used this as a means to an understanding of posture and stance in kata. After letting them go a bit, I would pick out a pair who were mangling the newly-learned technique in some obvious way, and have them do it in front of the class. And what did I ask of the class? "Tell me what principle or aspect of Sanchin that they are violating which is making this so hard for them to do." In the case of Michael with his Naihanchi application class, the students are bending over - completely losing their control of center. How can you manipulate someone else's center if you don't have control of your own? Michael shows them how to stay upright and twist from horse to left front stance, and then pivot back around in the other direction to right front stance. (When you get good at techniques like these, your "stances" can be much more dynamic.

But the way they first get introduced to this efficiency of execution is in the form itself, where you don't have the complicating factor of an uncooperative opponent. There the instructor can make sure stances are correct, flow is right, and the power is coming from the core. By the time is all said and done, the body now "knows" much more when going back to the physical mnemonic of kata. The experience then gets richer and richer as more and more applications are piggybacked onto this study of human movement. With time, the student can take the lessons and run with them in new directions.

- Bill

[MikeK]

And then again "shorthand interpretation" could just mean, "I really don't know what this means but if I mention colon 32 and nostril 3 enough times and get a compliant brown belt to demo on, it could look like I know what I'm talking about." I agree, these guys are getting dangerously free with their interpretations.

While some of his ideas aren't too bad how he's putting them together is questionable IMO. Too many "ifs" in the explanations, contrived entry, starting too far away and he almost totally ignores the lower body dynamics of the kata, which doesn't surprise me after he showed how he did a bit of it. In other words it's less about technique and more about developing the attributes that make the techniques work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxcuyO8n ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNrslr9L ... L&index=22

I've seen a lot of explanations of Naihanchi and Tekki but so far none of them sits well with me. I really think considering that it was often the first kata taught, that almost all of the techniques are done from a difficult position that requires a lot of hip turn, that the lower body is frequently shifting between odd stepping, grounding and the returning wave kick that it was mostly a training kata.

Now what does all of this have to do with Shotokan?

[Bill Glasheen]

Mike

My post was mostly tongue-in-cheek. I was ragging on you.

I found the interpretation in that Martial Arts Explorer clip to be perfectly acceptable. In fact I showed it to an experienced martial artist tonight (now one of my students) who had seen Naihanchi before, and - like me - he had the same hand-slap-the-forehead reaction. It makes perfect sense.

Were these guys executing it well? Not exactly. This BTW is an aikido technique, but with attitude. The aikido people can show you how to get the footwork in.

Meanwhile in this video you posted...

Naihanchi Kata - 2 of 3 -How To -Angi Uezu -Isshinryu

... I didn't particularly care for his kata execution of the technique. Rather than doing a "rabbit punch" with the rear arm, he's trying to thrust with it. I'm sure it makes him feel good inside, but... it makes no friggen sense and has no power in that line. Total BS!

I really think considering that it was often the first kata taught, that almost all of the techniques are done from a difficult position that requires a lot of hip turn, that the lower body is frequently shifting between odd stepping, grounding and the returning wave kick that it was mostly a training kata.

Study of human motion? Absolutely. Vehicle to practice martial mechanics? You bet.

Not meant to be a reference book for techniques (like Sanchin)? I disagree. I've shown you three videos I like (two from Martial Arts Explorer), and I think their approach is an excellent way to study kata. It's what I do when I teach. It is said that Kanbun Uechi rarely did a whole kata in class from beginning to end. He was always taking pieces and parts out, drilling them, and then working with students on the movements. This is the kind of kata study that I endorse.

Now what does all of this have to do with Shotokan?

First of all, Naihanchi is the same as Tekki, and Tekki are Shotokan kata.

Second... This is my response to this dialogue.

How realistic are long stances and straight punches?

How often do people block in fights?

How often do you have the room to do head high kicks in a real fight?

Why practice punching and kicking the air when you have partners and bags?

why is it importent what a technique looks like?

Dojo karate, Dry land swimmers, Point scorers, Air punchers, competition Karate or Self Protection it's your choice.

This is a strawman characterization of the style. I feel sorry for someone whose experience with (or intentionally disparaging characterization of) Shotokan is as posted. Karate kata training IS about working with partners. It IS about doing realistic techniques. It ISN'T all about "air punchers." Etc., etc. ad nauseum.

This of course has nothing to do with sport karate, which is something that Shotokan people do as part of their training. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. A good sport fighter can kick booty without any in-depth kata study. Sport karate is fun, and serendipitously serves a purpose.

If someone knows how to train, a reference book exists for self-defense training in good traditional kata. If someone doesn't like it, well... Don't do it! There's no need for a person secure in their own training to knock another perfectly legitimate (and highly effective) way to achieve an end.

- Bill

[MikeK]

Bill,
I went back and looked at the Martial Arts Explorer videos again, and from my perspective they're crap. Too contrived, to complicated, too far away and tosses the kata's principles out the window.

Not meant to be a reference book for techniques (like Sanchin)? I disagree.

Well Bill there are references to techniques and then there is fantasy. And trying to sequence this kata too literally results in fantasy.

First let's take the Naihanchi how-to by Angi Uezu. Who isn't one of my favorites but his video is clear and he has a nice emphasis on what the lower body is doing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxcuyO8n ... re=related

Then let's take this rather pedestrian and common bunkai for Naihanchi. Each piece is OK but something is missing and it doesn't feel right.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xrtr_Ynd ... re=related

Finally take a look at this fellow and look at his "bunkai", his kata is just OK. I see almost all of the parts of Naihanchi used, including the footwork, sabaki and more, and in a pretty realistic manner. No silly joint locks that work only under perfect conditions, no contrived attacks that allow the techniques to work, really nothing like what the modern bunkai crowd produces. Just a lot of techniques put together using principles and movements developed from the kata. Yup, it's a training kata.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOvUYQlN ... re=related

The double leg move at 1:27 is one I learned for Tekki Shodan from a student of Ohshima.

Now watch that video from the MAA again and you'll be slapping your head but saying "What the flock are they thinking?"

[Bill Glasheen]

Mike

Sorry I haven't said this before in this thread. Always a pleasure, Mike!

Sometimes when we have discussions, it seems like we are arguing when it appears to me that we agree.

When you first showed this to me...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxcuyO8n ... re=related

I immediately jumped on it as not smelling right, didn't I? Remember?

Meanwhile in this video you posted...

Naihanchi Kata - 2 of 3 -How To -Angi Uezu -Isshinryu

... I didn't particularly care for his kata execution of the technique. Rather than doing a "rabbit punch" with the rear arm, he's trying to thrust with it. I'm sure it makes him feel good inside, but... it makes no friggen sense and has no power in that line. Total BS!

And what did you post about this guy's subsequent bunkai explanation?

Then let's take this rather pedestrian and common bunkai for Naihanchi. Each piece is OK but something is missing and it doesn't feel right.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xrtr_Ynd ... re=related

Great minds think alike, Mike. Why are we arguing???

Yes, yes, yes!!!!

So then you looked at some of the Martial Arts Explorer videos. You wrote...

Too contrived, to complicated, too far away and tosses the kata's principles out the window.

Intelligent minds can disagree, Mike.

First, too far away? How can you say that when in the "rabbit punch" application you're pulling the guys face into your chest?

From the Martial Arts Explorer video @ 8:00

If you want to try this technique with a partner, remember to pull them into your chest, and squeeze them right up against you.

How much closer can you get short of sexual penetration?

You don't like joint locks? Fine... Let's throw away all of Japanese jiujitsu, and the BJJ that is the descendant of it. You can do that if you wish. Personally I'm very good at it.

IT TAKES PRACTICE!!!

No, it isn't that difficult if you learn how - like a lot of things.

But OK, let's throw out what amounts to 1/3 of martial arts - just as an academic exercise.

You write...

take a look at this fellow and look at his "bunkai", his kata is just OK.

Bbbbzzzzttttt!!!!!!

Wrong, Mike. Before I saw this guy's bunkai, I immediately could see he had the right stuff. (I guess that's why George gave me this stupid rank thing I have... ). What do I see? A fellow whose extremities are being driven by his core muscles. That's a good start. Could he come up with reasonable bunkai? That remained to be seen, but the foundation was there.

I see almost all of the parts of Naihanchi used, including the footwork, sabaki and more, and in a pretty realistic manner.

Actually not so much sabaki. But otherwise I agree.

I gave you some videos that took one single piece out, Mike. Are you going to take this application-dense bunkai and say "See, see!!!" and tell me this guy found the holy grail?

Look... He is good. He's also a great choreographer. He put a very nice set of sequences together. And I agree that he gets all the parts working together.

You criticized the Martial Arts Explorer videos because he was showing single elements. Didn't use footwork? BS! Didn't use all the parts? BS again! Look again. The footwork is there. In fact, coming around the backside actually makes their footwork superior to some of the more one-dimensional stuff which that beast of a man was doing.

But let's not take anything away from the bunkai you showed me. I like them. In this we agree.

So what are the principles of good bunkai? Let's try to put together some common elements.

• The applications are not defensive. Instead the individual executing the bunkai takes charge of his/her opponent ASAP. Van likes to use the expression "shutting the person down." Do that ASAP.
• The person takes full use of both upper and lower body if at all possible. Note the sweeps, the lower leg attacks, etc.
• If possible, the person gets off the line of force of the attacker. The execution should not require that the individual be a beast like the fellow you showed me. I can't teach someone to be that big. I can do like some teachers and find big people and say I taught them how to fight. BS!!! It's gotta work for the little people in the class as well. That means not relying on size and force to make things work.
• There should be flexibility built into the application. Sometimes the person you're working with doesn't present themselves exactly like the textbook sequence application after doing the first move. You should still be able to proceed and have options for using the same techniques (more or less) if things vary a bit. And there's nothing wrong with ad libbing as you go along.
• Any bunkai sequence must not violate the principle of zanshin (remaining mind). You and I both agree we don't like the first fellow's bunkai. What I specifically don't like is that his mindset is to avoid or block an attack and MAYBE do one counter-attack, and then he turns his back on a very dangerous attacker. No, no, no!!! You shut the person down and take them out before you turn your back on them.
• Attacks should be more pedestrian, and not require athleticism on the part of the individual coming in. I think it's great to see two incredibly talented karateka throwing one awesome karate technique after another at each other, and making a bunkai look great. But these things can get just a little too inbred (cute??). Applications should be to the kinds of attacks more commonly seen on the street.
• If you are hitting yourself in a kata (elbow on hand, inside-foot on your leg), that's often a sign you're hitting your partner. Sometimes (like the Naihanchi I like where that crescent-kick motion is to your own leg), you're pointing to where you're going to attack your opponent on the same respective body part.

That's a good start.

The double leg move at 1:27 is one I learned for Tekki Shodan from a student of Ohshima.

I like that sequence, Mike.

Let's work a bit just with this sequence, which is really the best way to have bunkai conversations in a forum. Why do *I* like that, Mike?

• The first move is really a "take charge" response to the attack. Rather than avoid the kick and allow the attacker to continue with his barrage, you control the incoming leg with a mid-air crescent sweep and set the person up for an immediate shut-down.
• The yin leads immediately to yang. A "take control" uke (interception) leads immediately to an attack that shuts the person's center down right at the foundation.
• You do not HAVE to wait for the person to attack. The exact same sequence works on someone standing in a stationary stance should you choose to preempt any attack before it is launched. So you come in and sweep the front leg with the first move to break the center, which sets up the subsequent shut-down technique on a foundation leg.

It's worth mentioning that these bunkai were highly rehearsed, and done with extremely talented participants. The person on the receiving end of that bunkai was highly skilled both in his atemi waza and his ukemi. Otherwise there would have been some serious injuries. Bottom line... Two highly skilled and highly rehearsed practitioners are making that bunkai look really good. Street application? Probably not so pretty. But I believe all the pieces and parts are there for them to apply their understanding of the kata in myriad settings and get the job done.

- Bill

[MikeK]

Same here Bill, always a pleasure.

Well they are selling these as "functional self defense techniques" and "credible self defense techniques" from traditional kata. I figure they should at least be up to working with the chemical cocktail and off of the flinch. These guys are not setting their techniques up so that they would stand a chance of working with an aggressive opponent. Now if they were selling these as creative dojo techniques I'd be happy to give these guys a big "ata boy!"
The point being if we're going to claim that traditional karate is valid as a self defense platform then we should focus on techniques and setups that stand a chance of working with someone besides our dojo buddies. So I'm going to be a bit picky and critical knowing that my friend Ray will email me telling me something looks bogus, and KG will be looking for any excuse to declare BS on this stuff.

First, too far away? How can you say that when in the "rabbit punch" application you're pulling the guys face into your chest?

The entire pass/parry/pulling of the arm would be considered too far away for us and not have as much control of the limb as we'd like. Pulling the way he did from the wrist is risky, he'd have done better to move his body so the arm was locked against his body. Not to mention the bonus of a nice elbow bump to set up the head throw.
During the bunkai for the opening move of naihanchi there was a lot of space during the wristlock and the attacker who wasn't pinned down.

You don't like joint locks? Fine... Let's throw away all of Japanese jiujitsu, and the BJJ that is the descendant of it. You can do that if you wish. Personally I'm very good at it.

IT TAKES PRACTICE!!!

No, it isn't that difficult if you learn how - like a lot of things.

But OK, let's throw out what amounts to 1/3 of martial arts - just as an academic exercise.

Let's see what I actually said, " No silly joint locks that work only under perfect conditions, no contrived attacks that allow the techniques to work,..."

Did I say all joint locks or just ones that work only under perfect conditions?


BTW. We actually use a lot of joint locks, though we will also pin the guy to the spot to help us put them on. And almost always after a strike or two.

[Bruise Lee]

THats similar to an interpretation I learned for the opening move of a USA Goju kata called something like Gesaku Sho, if I remember correctly from 30 years ago

There are myriad Gekisai bunkai out there. Gekisai is one of the "instructional" (as opposed to classical) forms of Goju Ryu, I believe choreographed by Miyagi Chojun.

The Geikisai bunkai are either in a piecemeal format (like Uechi's Seisan bunkai), or done as a continuous beginning-to-end partner exercise (as I learned in Shorei Kai Goju Ryu).

- Bill

Thanks. Actually I am referring to a more recent vintage form from the USA Goju system, as opposed to the Geki sai

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=km-aBaCtwP4