Good points, lots to think about, and many different views on the subject matter.
At times I wonder if we are not doing our students a disservice by trumping out the martial arts as the ultimate in self defense which gives rise to many anxieties and unrealistic expectations.
But if someone wants to get fairly close to what it might be like when slammed upon in the street, at least a small component of their training over their lifetime should include a contact match or two. Lots to learn there, I know I did.
Some people will argue that they have been successful in defending themselves without a more realistic component, and that the objective of Karate is not to get hit.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>1) Folks who want to do it (and I know there are those folks).
2) Folks who get paid handsomely to do it so they can afford the medical expenses that WILL be incurred. At least in the military you get paid to hurt and you get free medical expenses (for a lifetime) if you get hurt. In professional sports, you can get paid handsomely if you are one of the very few (tenths of a percent of amateurs) that makes it big.
3) Folks who don't have anything to lose. They don't need to use their brain for a living. They don't care if they are crippled for the rest of their lives. They aren't going to try to sue whomever they can to support them if one fight makes them unemployable for the rest of their lives.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Bill, Right on and I concur. People in category #1 can easily find themselves in category #3 over time.
I've done my time in the boxing gyms. Bang some and got banged too. Anybody with an average IQ will eventually figure out that if you have other options for a "profession", you take. Anyone doing it for "fun" or as a "test" will figure out, at some point the testing and fun will catch up to you. It's sad to see Ali in his current state. It's sadder to see much younger and poorer ex-fighters who can't walk or talk straight... The "Glory" of the fighting game wears off pretty quickly when you see some of these folks...
Even the WKF game can take its physical toll... Now, think of the time, travel and other expenses you put into it. Was it worth it? For some, definitely. For others, I can also see why they wouldn't want to.
Been there, done that. Still doing some of it. But, no, I would not frown on anyone whose not interested. At the same time, back to the original thread title, let's refrain from silly claims. Students get taken in by blatant and subtle exhortations about what they art does or does not convey. Let's try to be real and meet them at whatever level they want to go. If they are not your "kind" of student, them send them to somebody else or away.
Good points. I guess it’s about how far we are willing to take the martial arts illusions or delusions of grandeur, and make no mistake, we all have them.
Also a question: If you have seen the Okinawan championship tape of Gary Khoury, you will realize that the event is much like a Sabaki challenge, even more so, because I saw some awful punches to the face in addition to throws, and knockouts by full power kicks to the face. Gary, as you know, won third place.
So what do we make of our “founding fathers’” martial arts event? What are they trying to prove and why?
I'd love to see it. Please advise how I can get (pay for, of course) a copy.
Once upon a time in the eighties, I thought about competing in the Okinawan event. I had no delusions; I just wanted to be there and give it a shot. A few rounds would have been a victory for me. Alas, it's difficult to fund trips to Okinawa on a $400/month graduate student stipend. I'm glad there are folks like Gary who have the talent and resources to experience such an incredible event.
I've said it before and I'll say it again - I think the world of Gary and I am so very proud of him. Nice to see the Campbell tradition continue!
I want to make sure everyone understand that my negative comments concerning the welfare of blacks from the slums of Charlottesville were intentionally callous and racist. I was trying to make a point with the callousness.
Japan has a culture that accepts a kamikaze mindset. In the Muslim religion, some poor folks are conned into thinking they will have a special place in heaven if they sacrifice their lives for Allah. This explains the human wave attacks in the Iran/Iraq war. The reality is what it is.
Our own society can have its own brand of callousness towards the value of a human life. Some among us consider certain lives more valuable than others. I do not include myself in that group. But sometimes folks need to have their noses rubbed in the manure of such thinking to admit that it exists and it is wrong.
In case anyone was wondering...
It's fine by me if someone has their own view of immortality or indifference to morbidity and mortality. But I will not impose views like that on others.
Yes, I have tapes for sale of the 20th Anniversary Okinawan event. My plan was to get each subsequent year, dub them into English, with "color commentary" and sell them to interested dojo. But, if I'm not mistaken, the 20th Anniversary was the last official All-Okinawan event. Now the show is on the road.
This year, I'll be fighting in Atlanta, maybe for the last time ever, in part for the reasons Bill states above and in part for personal reasons of my own.
On the topic of contact/"no contact", let me say this: I was lured to Uechi-ryu originally because of its no-nonsense, knock-'em-down/knock-'em out reputation. The dojo where I originally trained was full of true-to-life Uechi animals (Tracy Rose, Mike Rozumek, Len Burrows, et.al.,) who pushed the edge of the Uechi envelope and in turn pushed me too.
So I did the only thing I could do: I left the US for training in Japan & Okinawa. When I fought, I fought full-contact, no pads. I'm not telling war stories; I'm telling Uechi stories. I signed up for this ****!
When I fought in Japan, you had to check in with the referee if you were even going to wear a band-aid. It was you, your doogi and your opponent in the ring, period.
Write ups of my matches appeared in "Karate-do Magazine" under the full contact section. Articles appeared about Uechi-ryu being the "Ultimate Full Contact Karate". I'm not kidding. I can show you.
On Okinawa, it was worse. Yes, we wore hand pads, but the level of the fighters is so much better. It's scary. Everytime you enter the ring, you know that you could be leaving horizintal, and maybe for the last time--ever.
In matches, I have broken people's faces and bones, I have knocked people down and completely out. In one match, I saw a man get his teeth punched out. He picked them up, put them on the scorer's table and resumed the match. Afterwards, he gathered them up and left the arena.
To me, THIS is Uechi-ryu. Call me sick or stupid. Its a test of spirit, not just toughness--DON'T BE FOOLED!
But all around the world today, the trend is towards the world standard/IOC/WKF rules. In a way I'm very happy: Finally, there will be a world champion! I mean, nobody complains that America's basketball "Dream Team" is not REALLY the best hoop team in the world because there are these guys in Russia who foul better than anyone else on the planet!
On the other hand, speed karate was never my game. I'm more of a take one, give two kind of guy. The faster the competitors get and the older I get, I realize that --like a in lot of things-- I was born 10 years too late.
So where is my Uechi-ryu? In my head, mostly. No, I'm not going to stop training the Gary Khoury way, I'm just going to face the facts that there are many more out there these days who prefer not to pursue "it"--whatever "it" might mean to them (or me!).
However, even under the "softer" (HA!) WKF rules, there aren't 10 Uechika in the world (myself included) who could hold the jock of even THIS REGION'S best competitors. Think about THAT!
What do I wish? I don't know. Yuji Iwakura of Sabaki Challange fame told me while training here that his teacher's Honbu (Head) dojo is only 1/4 the size of my fledgling school. (Gee, I wonder why?!)
At best, we must fight (pardon the pun) to hold on to our hard-hitting Uechi roots while we encourage the proliferation of the philosophy and joy of practicing our traditional art.
Realistically, Uechi-ryu is no longer a fighting style of Karate. All of you Uechi "old-timers" and even some of you younger Uechi wannabes have got to step up and realize: The tiger has lost his teeth.
Maybe it's all for the better, though. There's already enough pain and suffering in the world without seeking it in our modern DO-jo.
To me, THIS is Uechi-ryu. Call me sick or stupid. Its a test of spirit, not just toughness--DON'T BE FOOLED!
Gary, man... you have shown both. And you will continue to find ways to test/feel your spirit -- for yourself above all else. Authenticity -- you got that too.
I know the arguments about "to what end..what does it prove..it programs you wrong etc."
That has not been my experience. Usually contact tournament fighters have a better chance of survival than most, for a number of reasons, spirit being the shining beacon to safety.
You may have been successful in defending yourself without the heavy sparring/contact tournament component, and that's fine, but you are not as well prepared as a complete fighter with all the components.
If you never been down from a vicious kick or punch or a slammer takedown, hurting like hell, unable to breathe and feeling like an overcoming darkness beckoning, then you are not tough enough mentally in a street fight to find your way back to victory or survival while swimming the vortex of pain and abject psychological breakdown caused by sudden impact.
As Gary indicated, it is spirit that you must develop and internalize to really be effective, regardless of technique.
So now go ahead and tell me that full contact or Sabaki type matches do nothing for the indomitable spirit, and that all this is useless because if you are a real karate man, you are not supposed to get hit in a fight..
I do not study the martial arts just to be a better fighter: and at the risk of upsetting someone, I think anyone who dose has missed the point. There are probably better ways to accomplish this end anyway.
The martial arts are about mental and physical training, whole person improvement. As I said in my post in ‘how to start little peeps’, violence is the last resort. I believe a good martial artist studies his art with the same hope as a first aider learns his. The hope we shall never need to use it.
I wonder if full contact and boxing share the same ethical problems. If it is your hart you wish to test try submission wrestling.
I do not study the martial arts just to be a better fighter.
I don’t think that most of us study the arts solely to be a better fighter, there is much more to benefit from than just fighting aspects, I agree. But the fighting/self defense component is always there, and it must be addressed at one point or another, somehow, or it would be best to take up yoga.
Some do not wish to pursue it, that’s fine, but look up the definition of the word “Martial arts” ! There are certain implications in that definition.
There are many ways to test your heart; you need not confine yourself to submission fighting, full contact etc., you may want to try joining the Marines, the rangers, going airborne, work as a bouncer in a ghetto bar etc.
It is all relative to who the individual is. But without addressing the fighting/self defense component of a martial art, the student is not complete. You need not go overboard with it though.
As I said in my post in ‘how to start little peeps’, violence is the last resort. I believe a good martial artist studies his art with the same hope as a first aider learns his. The hope we shall never need to use it.
Very true. Violence will always be the last resort. But if and when it cannot be avoided, the question is will you have the nerve to stand up to it?
If you are hit hard, and you will be in a street fight [ bank on it]..will you be able to shrug off the sense of fearful helplessness it engenders and continue to survive?
------------------ VanCanna
[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited April 07, 2001).]
