The knife and self defense

Allen M. · Post by **Allen M.** » Wed Jul 18, 2001 11:21 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

On a more serious note than my last post, I have noticed people talking a lot about kali stick and knife counters, which are fine, but how many of us walk around with a pair of escrimador sticks? No flame, here, just a comment.

The thing about filipino knife fighting is that the shorter the stick the closer the "practice" distance, movements pretty much the same for a lot of things. When the stick gets whittled down to about 10" it becomes a knife surrogate. In "knife fighting" the two ends of it is a weapon. The blade end for its stabbing and slashing qualities while the other end, too often overlooked, for its skull crushing atributes.

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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Wed Jul 18, 2001 11:23 pm

Lee

Actually there is a technique in Uechi hojoundo (shomen hajiki or "front snap") that - on surface - appears to be eye strikes with the flicking of a hand. When I teach this technique, I remind people that anything in the hand could be the weapon. Thus a handful of gravel, sand, whatever...works, and gives you distance.

On the knife defense, my Green Beret instructor taught me an interesting one that fits into the mold of shomen hajiki. You know how in movies when a street fighter faces someone with a knife, that he will wrap a shirt or towel around the front arm, presumably to take the slashing? Well my instructor told me this could be a wonderful decoy. Basically act like this is what you are going to do. What you will do at some point is fling that towel or shirt into the attacker's face. You now have about a half second to be all over the knife holder like a cheap suit. Better have an ippon in your back pocket!

I'm not recommending anyone fight someone with a knife if you don't have to. But deception is a wonderful tool for either the warrior or the citizen defender. I can tell you stories... I guess the I.Q. and clever deception must have come in handy many generations back.

- Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited July 18, 2001).]

Allen M. · Post by **Allen M.** » Thu Jul 19, 2001 1:53 am

The Best of VSD. -- "Ok, Mister Knife Fighter, I know you just rushed me from around a corner to stab and slash me by surprise, but would you please give me a second or so to remove my jacket and wrap it around my arm so we can make what I think you're going to do a little <strike>fairiere</strike> fairer?"

Up in New England, with the change in seasons and the change in hourly weather, it is not uncommon to hook a light jacket, windbreaker, or sweater over a forearm while walking. It would be definitely be a handy item to flick it into someone's face like snapping a beachtowel, Bill. One nice thing is that the tip of the extended buttoned cuff exceeds the length of the extended weapned hand so if one screws up on the first snap, it's either snap again or runtime.

.45 caliber Ippons are a good thing to have handy too.

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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera

student · Post by **student** » Thu Jul 19, 2001 2:09 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Allen M.:

Up in New England, with the change in seasons and the change in hourly weather, it is not uncommon to hook a light jacket, windbreaker, or sweater over a forearm while walking. It would be definitely be a handy item to flick it into someone's face like snapping a beachtowel, Bill. One nice thing is that the tip of the extended buttoned cuff exceeds the length of the extended weaponed hand so if one screws up on the first snap, it's either snap again or runtime.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Allen and I are thinking alike, which in itself is a scary thought.

But in the heat of the Louisville summer, when I am outside it is not uncommon for me casually to have my suit jacket in my weak hand, over my shoulder...with the weight of the things I normally keep in my pockets, I legally have a morningstar or manriki in full view....

Lee? Did the "Mumblety Foot" happen while you were still living in Ann Arbor? And do I know the Special Forces Sgt. in question?

student

david · Post by **david** » Thu Jul 19, 2001 10:11 am

If someone were just going to truly sucker attack you out of the blue, you really wouldn't have a chance at reaching for anything. You would be doing good to just react at all.

Generally speaking, there is a buildup of sorts leading to the attack/fight be it a "woofing" contest in one those macho mano-a-mano things, or the "interview." The interview doesn't have to be verbal either. It could be eye contact, body language, the inappropriate invasion of person space, etc. If you're aware, you have time to prepare a response.

The only times I am on extra alert and prepared is late in the evenings on the train or on the street. Generally, this is when you may be taken by a "surprise" predatory attack. In crowded situations, you'll likely not encounter this because of the prescence of witnesses and a possible "do-gooder." However, in crowded situations is when you will most likely run into the mano-a-mano macho situations. I find myself pretty adept at avoiding/responding to these. They say what they want and I try to keep moving.

In terms of dark lonely streets and stuff, I generally have my soft brief/shoulder bag on the weak side -- a good shield -- and something in my strong hand. Nothing to reach for. It's there already. I think being aware of environmental makeshift weapons is good but I prefer to have my own. However, the best thing is still awareness. I have not been mugged yet (knock on wood) while I've seen the various possible set-ups. Maybe they weren't set-ups. Or maybe my awareness and vibes precluded them. Hard to say to substantiate that something was avoided.

david

Panther · Post by **Panther** » Thu Jul 19, 2001 2:51 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Allen M.:

.45 caliber Ippons are a good thing to have handy too. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi-capacity ones...

Good thread everybody. A public Thanks to Glasheen-sensei for starting this off.

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Thu Jul 19, 2001 4:44 pm

Good thread indeed.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Hi-capacity ones

Nothing like a high cap. Glock .45__

David,

Good thinking about the "shield"__ There are briefcases now with Kevlar inserts.

For the average karate-ka it is difficult to not go in denial of a possible knifing__
Not a knife fight, but a knifing.

Sudden, numbing_ by the knife or screw driver/box cutter, hidden until the last instant, then deployed in a fast, violent pumping action.

I told David of a such a killing I witnessed
in the Old country.

Cops have a saying: A gun is no good unless it is in your hands__

Same for a knife, I guess.

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Van Canna

RACastanet · Post by **RACastanet** » Thu Jul 19, 2001 6:33 pm

Politically incorrect 'hi-cap' mags are actually 'full cap' mags.

As Gunteacher Tom also pointed out, bad guys do not usually spend much time getting instruction or at the range, at least not around here. Accoring to him, for every three feet of distance you can put between you and a bad guy, you cut in half the likelyhood of being hit when they fire. Soooooo...... distance is everything.

Rich

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Fri Jul 20, 2001 5:15 am

Van

A former female karate student of mine got her Ph.D. in polymer chemistry from UMass, and subsequently worked for DuPont in Richmond. She got quite familiar with the properties of kevlar.

I can remember once where a fellow biomedical engineer was thinking about using kevlar as insulation for wiring, and was asking her for advice. I distinctly remember her saying that it was a material with some rather interesting properties. For some reason or other, it might stop a bullet and yet a box cutter could cut it like a scissors could a piece of cloth. So while the briefcase with kevlar might work well as a universal shield, one may not be as protected against a knifing if that kevlar vest wasn't a composite with some other material or materials. Then again, it would be better than nothing.

In the case of facing someone like Raffi with a knife (and if leaving wasn't an option) I still wouldn't feel very safe with just a vest on my torso... Thankfully many thugs out there have no idea how to use their weapons. If only they had labels on their foreheads so we could tell who was whom...

Our firearms instructor (Tom) told Rich and I a story once about how he was facing a teenage kid with a semiautomatic. Tom is sort of a round character, and he told us that this kid pulled out his semiauto and started firing away. Poor Tom had only a scrub pine (Pinus Virginiana) to stand behind, and he told us that significant portions of his torso were exposed on either side of the tree.

But it seems our bad guy had been watching too much TV. He was holding the gun sideways - just like in the movies - and was spraying bullets everywhere but on Tom. Tom very deliberately fired one shot in the dirt in front of the kid, and told him to drop his weapon. Amazingly enough, the kid obliged.

Let's hope the BGs we face in the future aren't from Sicily or Southern Ireland...

- Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited July 19, 2001).]

doubleouch · Post by **doubleouch** » Fri Jul 20, 2001 5:48 am

In terms of effective techniques of emptyhand defense against the knife, I suggest looking at Burton Richardson. he does nothing that is not tested in hard realistic sparring. he trained fillipino arts for years and concluded that the only defense that he has found that almost works is to grab the knife wielding hand with both of yours and work your knees head butts biting foot stomping kicking and cussing. he will be hitting you with his free hand. It aint pretty, but it is closest to a high percentage move that he has found.

Allen M. · Post by **Allen M.** » Fri Jul 20, 2001 9:18 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

So while the briefcase with kevlar might work well as a universal shield, one may not be as protected against a knifing if that kevlar vest wasn't a composite with some other material or materials. Then again, it would be better than nothing.

Anyone remember chain mail?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

to grab the knife wielding hand

Kind of chancy. Attemptable if the dude is drunk or something and just hovering with it or slowly waves it around in front of your face during an interview. However, someone with a sharp knife and is a good fast slasher can really whip a knife around and easily remove fingers if he gets wind of what you are trying to do in time. I’ve been busted in the knuckles enough times trying to grab a short stickers wrist a-la-Kali style that I know already it’s not my favorite.

A good old fashioned Uechi circle block could come in handy followed through by a boshiken into the eye socket or a grab to the windpipe with a hiraken could be good if the opportunity, timing, and distance presented itself and you didn’t screw up in the process. Uechi circle blocks are fast and are a gross motor movement which provides broad coverage and don’t have to be accurate to get an arm out of the way. The deflection time also gives you something under a second to find and home in on a piece of face and attempt to destroy it. You’ve got one shot at it before the attacker recovers.

This is one place where I'd also recommend a good old fashioned TKD-style side-thrust kick or a 180-deg back kick directly into the sternum area with an upward angular component, really swinging the hips into it to minimize or nullify the target [you] area. This is one time to play the odds that the one closing the distance with a knife will be focused with one intent and not be thinking of something attacking him back, esp. from the lower body. This is the one of the very few times I'd nod approval to leaning away from the target while kicking. Legs are [usually] longer than an arm + knife.

However, neither the distance, opportunity, nor the timely registration in the defender's little brain of what's going on may allow for a potent side kick, but it is a man-stopper and is something to consider.

If you can’t use something from your own martial arts system, of which you may have thousands of hours invested, something you’d consider effective, then maybe it’s better to take you training elsewhere and switch systems.

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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera

LeeDarrow · Post by **LeeDarrow** » Fri Jul 20, 2001 8:55 pm

student,

Yes the Mumblety-Foot incident happened while I was living in Ann Arbor. No, you do not know the Special Forces Sergeant involved - neither do I. He came into the place, in uniform, for a beer before going on to where ever it was that he was going.

I have not seen him since. But that was one of the slickest 3-on-one with knives and bottles show stoppers I have ever seen - and NO fatalities or major injuries!

What really impressed me, though was the fact that he was entirely calm about it both during and after. NO impression that the chemical cocktail had even made a small appearance.

If I ever get into a tight situation, I want him on MY team for certain!

Respectfully,

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.

LeeDarrow · Post by **LeeDarrow** » Fri Jul 20, 2001 9:08 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Allen M.:

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Anyone remember chain mail?
[/QUOTE]

Ah chainmail - shades of my somewhat ... unusual ... past.

A friend of mine was a member of the Society for Creative Anachronism - a group that does medieval martial arts and crafts with mock weapons (as if a 1" diameter rattan cane is a mock weapon, but nevermind).

He was wearing a chainmail vest and a long cape. Because he is a Shakespearean actor, his hair is long and, with his slender build and a cape, can be mistaken for a lady from the rear in a dark alley.

One evening, he was crossing from one building to another at an SCA event when he heard a distinct SNICK! from behind and a growly voice say, "Hey Baby! I got six inches of sharp steel what says yer gonna give me yer money!"

My friend turned, whipping forth rapier and main gauche and sneered back, "I'll see your six inches, sirrah and raise you thirty-eight!"

Needless to say, my friend picked up a pretty good banana knife that night, without shedding a drop of anyone's blood as the thug was all a**holes and elbows, exiting stage left at mach 4.

Talk about use of an opportunity weapon!

Respectfully,

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.

Allen M. · Post by **Allen M.** » Fri Jul 20, 2001 10:33 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

But now that I teach, I never do a seminar about knife work without mentioning or actually screening Animal's (Marc MacYoung) first video, Surviving a Knife Fight, it is a must see on this topic. If all you have is traditional karate techniques and attitude, this vid can be a eureka experience!

I haven't seen a new video in years. This one in particular has been mentioned more than once, so it's going on my Xmas wish list.

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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Sat Jul 21, 2001 5:30 am

Allen

I agree with some of the approaches you suggested. As for the grabbing, well ... merde happens! I may not try to grab that attacking arm. But if I happened to get both my hands on his attacking arm, then the suggested method is fair game. I'm not stopping until he stops wiggling...

We were discussing this in my class last night while doing kata analysis. I tried to explain to people that the seemingly worthless bunkai to knife attacks (like in kanshiwa) are done that way mostly because of classroom safety, and not from utter naivete (except to those who don't understand the training methods). To a certain extent, the kata rarely show you exactly how to apply a move, because said moves are often done in very general fashion with no regard to the specific application. Bunkai don't show you exactly what you would do, because they don't let us kill students (as George often reminds Jimmy Malone

). What you really do for any one situation can be quite different.

A good example of a custom application to a knife attacker (again...if you really need to do this) is on page 324 of Alan Dollar's Secrets of Uechi Ryu Karate. Note the specific arm position/application of the wauke. You aren't really messing around with a full block. Instead you use the sanseiryu elbow thrust, whole-body charge in combination with an arm posture that is contained within the general wauke principle. One is basically just using the wauke arm to get that knife out of the way, while focusing all one's energy on an all-or-nothing ippon. For those who don't have the book, it's an elbow thrust done at the end of a charge. You are jousting with your elbow. It's simple. It's direct. It's devastating if you connect. And if you don't...you have a fighting chance of using the unexpressed momentum to spin out and live to talk about it.

- Bill